Shawnee - Exploration Age Civilization Discussion

[humble serf]

I see that working 3 possible ways in Civ 7
1. as you mentioned Lakota/ other native group
2. The Shawnee keep (or Customize) their civ name and then the pick the civ whose uniques fit the way they want their civ to develop. (America and Modern Native should both be unlocked… maybe they unlocked Mughals or Buganda or Meijii as well… but they get to keep calling it Shawnee if they choose)
3. America is unlocked, but at least it is America with Shawnee tradition policies instead of Roman/Norman tradition policies.

2 is what I would prefer… keep/choose the name and have the modern unique

Option 2 would be cool from a narrative perspective, but violates too many of the game's design principles. If I can transition my Shawnee civ into the Modern Era, why can't I do that with every other civ? If this kind of mechanic ever gets introduced, it will be part of a full expansion several years down the line.

I expect most civs will have 2 or 3 guaranteed historical/geographic transition options, and Shawnee's will be:

1. America. Not ideal, but it's the quickest fix and the only guaranteed option in the base game.
2. Canada (probably as DLC). Again, not ideal, but Canada will probably be represented as a diplomatic civ with a focus on national parks and winter sports, as they were in VI. Mechanically, this seems like a reasonable fit for an alternate-history nation-state arising from Tecumseh's confederacy.
3. Southern Athabaskan/Navajo/Apache (possibly as DLC). Yet again, not ideal, but I expect this will be the main indigenous North American representation in the Modern Era. The devs like including never-before-seen Native American groups (in fact every game since Civ 2 has included at least one such civ), Geronimo has great name recognition and maintained independence deep into the 19th century, and the Navajo Nation is by far the most influential and well-established tribal government of the 20th and 21st centuries. They could even do something with code-talking / espionage in the World War period.
4. It's possible that we get two or more indigenous American options in the Modern Era, but I doubt it. If there's another one, I expect it will be South American, but they might still offer it as a transition option for Shawnee.

 

[Krikkit1]

Option 2 would be cool from a narrative perspective, but violates too many of the game's design principles. If I can transition my Shawnee civ into the Modern Era, why can't I do that with every other civ? If this kind of mechanic ever gets introduced, it will be part of a full expansion several years down the line.

Every civ should be able to keep their Name.
This doesn’t violate any design principles because on Era change you would still change your uniques, the only thing that would be different would be the civ name that shows up in the UI and the city list.

So you would finish the Exploration Age as Shawnee or Mongols or whatever…. Then because you have unlocked Meijii Japan you choose that as your next civ.
Your Gameplay civ is Meijii Japan, you have their unique civics, abilities, units, infrastructure.
However your User Interface ie Name civ can stay the same (Shawnee, Mongolia etc.) or you can change your Name civ to Meijii Japan
The name would include the civ name and the city name list. So you could found Corinth in the Modern Age because you kept your Greek “Name” from Antiquity.

 

[humble serf]

Every civ should be able to keep their Name.
This doesn’t violate any design principles because on Era change you would still change your uniques, the only thing that would be different would be the civ name that shows up in the UI and the city list.

So you would finish the Exploration Age as Shawnee or Mongols or whatever…. Then because you have unlocked Meijii Japan you choose that as your next civ.
Your Gameplay civ is Meijii Japan, you have their unique civics, abilities, units, infrastructure.
However your User Interface ie Name civ can stay the same (Shawnee, Mongolia etc.) or you can change your Name civ to Meijii Japan
The name would include the civ name and the city name list. So you could found Corinth in the Modern Age because you kept your Greek “Name” from Antiquity.

I suppose so. Personally I don't like the idea of a Meiji civ continuing to call itself Shawnee (or even worse, Aksum), as it seems to privilege the earlier civs' identities over the later ones. But maybe I'm in the minority.

 

[Krikkit1]

I suppose so. Personally I don't like the idea of a Meiji civ continuing to call itself Shawnee (or even worse, Aksum), as it seems to privilege the earlier civs' identities over the later ones. But maybe I'm in the minority.

Well Ideally you could also customize that name (so someone could play Ancient America by choosing say Han for the uniques and get America as your name with Washington for the Capital)

 

[Rac]

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

This is Shawnee's knight. (Regional Native American Knights)

^ Note that Shawnee still uses bronze lance by this time. and instead of wearing steel armor, Native North American knights wore only clothes. I remember Okhitchaw models being a basis of so many medieval and Early Modern units in Civ6 mod 'Warfare Expanded Series'. Anyone here had been working on that mod project please.


About 'knights'.
Now this unit becomes availbe quite early (but not THAT) early. it is unlocked with Heraldry tech.

I don't know about another unit icon next to Knight. but it may NOT (and better not to) be pikeman. it appears that the unit carries shield and shock weapons (swords). but no name yet.

there were SECOND Knight upgrade with Metal Casting with different icon. this unit might have different name also. mmm 'Royal Knights', 'Imperial Knights', 'Government Knights', 'Lancers' or what? but the icon is couched lance and likely to wear heavier armor.

 

[AriochIV]

It's not a horsehead; it's an armored helmet viewed from the side.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Beat me on this again!

ok. i've edited out and re examined this icon. it is indeed an articulated visor helmet. but this 'Early Knights' (as in Europa) did not YET wear articulated plate armor as yet. the best armor they wore were either scalemaile or splintmaile (what are differences between splintmaile and lamella?).

 

[AriochIV]

Yes, the icon is anachronistic for the early Middle Ages. The hounskull bascinet was used in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. But the Norman knights I've seen look appropriate for the earlier period that this unit presumably represents.

There is a later unit at Metal Casting represented by a lance that may represent the later knight in full plate harness; it wouldn't be the first time they got the icons switched, or just plain used anachronistic icons. Though I'm curious what they plan to call the later unit if not "Knight."

 

[RedCourtJester]

The odd placement of Shawnee has got me thinking about what the devs might be considering when choosing "when" each civ is available. Making room for more "historical" lines of succession is one that's been talked about already, but what about Age specific game mechanics? We don't know to what extent gameplay will differ between Ages, but if Firaxis might consider placing civs anachronistically to let them interact with relevant systems, I think Shawnee might already be an example. With Prophetstown as the capital and city state related civics, the civ is evidently meant to represent the time of Tecumseh's confederacy. A huge part of the forming of the confederacy was, as "Prophetstown" implies, a religious movement led by Tecumseh's brother. Therefore, if our Shawnee civ was (logically) placed in the Modern Age, it would miss out on the ability to interact with a mechanic incredibly relevant to its real world inspiration: religion. Thus, Firaxis gives us Exploration Shawnee with a unique missionary, opening a new and more concerning can of worms in the process.

I think they work well with the religion mechanic. I think the reason they are exploration era is because they best connect Mississippians to Anishinaabe to establish a three-era throughline, better than any three civs could lead to a modern Shawnee that didn't feel repetitive across three eras.

Yes but there's no potential future where Anishnabe isn't half of that alliance.

Precisely this. The Council of Three Fires allied with Tecumseh, Anishinaabe fought in the war of 1812. They also (some of them) come from older mound-builder cultures. The Anishinaabe practically are Mississippian and Tecumseh's legacy, and in such an intertribal way that I don't think any other "exploration" and "modern" tribes/confederacies *could* be connected so well thematically/historically/linguistically.

The reason why the devs are saying the Shawnee are the only "native" "civ" is because this may have been the only three-tribe civ/leader path that was ever going to work this beautifully together. Okay, maybe a Pueblo -> Hohokam/Zuni -> Hopi civ could work, but not in the same way as literally forging a modern Native Coalition.

People in this thread fretting about how the Shawnee will be represented in modern era, when Tecumseh can just get his own set of 3 civs that best represent everyone in that throughline respectfully. I think the Mississippians are part of his pack, along with the Anishinaabe. I have been saying this for a week and it solves so many issues about plausibility and respectful representation, not to mention creates, hands down, the most beautiful idea we will ever see in a Civ game.

It says so in the video: "Unite the World." Tecumseh leading the Anishinaabe is going to be a diplomatic POWERHOUSE in modern era.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Yes, the icon is anachronistic for the early Middle Ages. The hounskull bascinet was used in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. But the Norman knights I've seen look appropriate for the earlier period that this unit represents.

View attachment 705623

There is a later unit at Metal Casting represented by a lance that may represent the later knight in full plate harness; it wouldn't be the first time they got the icons switched, or just plain used anachronistic icons. Though I'm curious what they plan to call the later unit if not "Knight."

^ Good Question. hard to answer.
since the name 'knight' is already taken. (and i don't see 'WIP' warning now!). the later knights became increasingly 'salarymen' and not landowners under arms. either 'Lancer' or 'Gendarme' could be used as unit name. but Cuirassier? i'm against it because the name is usually associated with Earlymodern gunpowder warfare. originally heavy cavalry armed with pistols, and with articulated plate armor. later 'harquebusier' with wore similiar 'pikemen armor' were counted amongs (and eventually became) actual cuirassiers (and thus full set of armor was abandoned, this maybe because it became useless in the age of gunpowder, or it associated with the decline and the eventual end of Oldschool Gendarme particularly in the French Wars of Religion in the late 16th Century. (or maybe less prestigious noblemen or even commonners were recruited and trained as the same heavy cavalry due to the traditional recruit stock (knight caste, or 2nd Estate) declined in numbers. and thus these noblemen can only became either elite guards or officiers, any 'non elites' of any branches of services (including heavy cavalry) had to be trained peasantry instead (and they don't regularly collects either a full set of armor, or keep a good warhorse). mmm not sure what will @Boris Gudenuf says about French Army recruit stocks of the Early Modern Period.

^ Battle of Dreux (1562) could cause the changes in policy of French military recruitments especially for cavalry. too many members of 2nd Estate serving as Gendarme died in that battle.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Also, have to point out that we probably aren't getting an Inca leader at launch, and if/when we ultimately do they will need to pick new colors. Not that I'm super surprised, in fact I have been assuming as much.

 

[AriochIV]

probably

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[RedCourtJester]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Except it does.

I think once people get a better feel for how leaders are being selected in this game (and I think Tecumseh will turn out to be an excellent example), an inference like that in fact will be a good "probably." I'll wait.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Except it does.

I think once people get a better feel for how leaders are being selected in this game (and I think Tecumseh will turn out to be an excellent example), an inference like that in fact will be a good "probably." I'll wait.

Probable means "supported by evidence strong enough to establish presumption but not proof." (Webster). I suspect the basic disagreement here is whether any evidence short of that officially released by developers/videos is strong enough at this point.

Right now, if I had to choose a word to use regularly with regard to what will be in Civ VII at launch in 4 months, the word would be 'possibly' rather than 'probably'.

We have things that have been revealed and, unless they make massive changes between now and February, Will be in the game.

Then we have a bunch of speculations on what could Possibly be in the game, some of which are far more possible than others, but None of which are confirmed.

 

[Zaarin]

Except it does.

I think once people get a better feel for how leaders are being selected in this game (and I think Tecumseh will turn out to be an excellent example), an inference like that in fact will be a good "probably." I'll wait.

Putting on my moderator hat, I would like to ask you to tone down how definitively you state your speculation. You are free and encouraged to speculate--it's part of the fun of prerelease for a lot of us!--we just don't want people misled about what has been confirmed and what is speculation, and you don't always make a clear distinction between what is your speculation and what is known. Someone who has not been following announcements as closely as some of us could be misled.

 

[_hero_]

and if/when we ultimately do they will need to pick new colors.

Or they are bringing back the jersey system that was in VI.

 

[Zaarin]

Or they are bringing back the jersey system that was in VI.

They've said they're not, but it's possible it will return after release.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

It's not a horsehead; it's an armored helmet viewed from the side.

View attachment 705621

And about an emblem right next to it

and about this infantry name. what should it be? 'Men At Arms?' 'Swordsmen'

 

[Zaarin]

and about this infantry name. what should it be? 'Men At Arms?' 'Swordsmen'

It's been confirmed to be Man-at-Arms in last night's PAX presentation.