Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016

[JosEPh_II]

Assembly Line (Industrial, X = 65) allows variety of factories and Industrialization (Modern, X = 72) obsoletes variety of workshops.
Did someone beelined too hard or forgot to build furniture (and other) factories before getting workshops obsoleted by Industrialization?
Sounds like mod dislikes blind beelining

Spoiler :

I think you just answered my question about the ObsoleteTech. It needs to go away for Furniture Workshop. I'm going to remove it and then commit it.

EDIT: Done.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Furniture Workshop has an ObsoleteTech And a ReplaceBuilding, why does it need both when the other lines for PrereqBonuses like Bricks or Cement do not? They have only the ReplaceBuilding, No ObsoleteTech

Maybe a simple fix just to Remove the <ObsoleteTech>TECH_INDUSTRIALISM</ObsoleteTech>? It's what I'm leaning to.

Do me a favor here. If you try this, which is something I didn't try yet, test it against KaTiON_PT's game and see if it changes whether he can continue building the town halls he's got queued or not. I kinda doubt it. I'm trying to figure out why they suddenly can't be built. It might be caching keeping it still a problem even once the furniture prereq is removed or provided for but there's something else... it shows a 'date built' in its hover info as if its a wonder. I did find a duplicate BuildingClassInfo for this building but neither the original or the duplicate have any limits established on the building. Very odd. Do other games show this on buildings even if not wonders?

 

[Toffer90]

I think you just answered my question about the ObsoleteTech. It needs to go away for Furniture Workshop. I'm going to remove it and then commit it.

EDIT: Done.

The obsolete tag for building is overused imo, so don't be afraid to remove them if it can solve an issue.
Most resource providing buildings should, as it is now, never obsolete.

When TB implement the planned new tag that can make a building that obsoletes be automatically replaced by another building, we will have to rethink all obsolete points anyway; it will be a game-changer on the issue.

 

[Raledon]

The nest thief building requires... something? In the vicinity. (TXT_KEY_REQUIRES_RAW_VICINITY_BONUS)

 

[Toffer90]

The nest thief building requires... something? In the vicinity. (TXT_KEY_REQUIRES_RAW_VICINITY_BONUS)

Well, it is BONUS_POULTRY in the vicinity that it requires.
TB made a new type of vicinity bonus tag recently, perhaps he did something odd regarding the text reference used for that tag...

It should be using TXT_KEY_BONUS_POULTRY, but from your report it would seem the dll is requesting TXT_KEY_REQUIRES_RAW_VICINITY_BONUS.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Most resource providing buildings should, as it is now, never obsolete.

As I have repeatedly said any building that provides a resource should not obsolete unless it is when the resource obsoletes. They can however be replaced.

This design of obsoleting buildings to force players to build the latest ones was a major design feature in Hydro's building design. It is still being used by TB for the crime fighting buildings. It makes for problems later in the game. The argument goes "but if we don't obsolete them no one will build the newer versions", to which I say then you need to rethink the definition of the building line. Get creative. One possibility is to have the older buildings have a malus at set population sizes or techs. As these get worse building the new becomes more likely for the AI which knows information that the player doesn't, since the actual values as displayed don't always include all the things going away when you build the upgrade.

 

[tmv]

It should be using TXT_KEY_BONUS_POULTRY, but from your report it would seem the dll is requesting TXT_KEY_REQUIRES_RAW_VICINITY_BONUS.

Global_CIV4GameText.xml was given the tag TXT_KEY_REQUIRES_RAW_IN_CITY_VICINITY in rev 9773, that was taken out in rev 9791 - double mistake.

 

[Raledon]

The argument goes "but if we don't obsolete them no one will build the newer versions"

That's actually the issue- forcing the player to build useless buildings. If the newer buildings were better (like they were supposed to be), the players will build them quite fast.
Seeing as some buildings are plain worse, players will try to avoid the newer version till they must.

 

[tmv]

That's actually the issue- forcing the player to build useless buildings. If the newer buildings were better (like they were supposed to be), the players will build them quite fast.
Seeing as some buildings are plain worse, players will try to avoid the newer version till they must.

Yes, but it's not easy to avoid that right now. We don't have volumetric resources yet, and the ability to build more of a thing is the main advantage of factories. I suppose they could just give a lot of hammers, but then the AI could try to build all factories in all its cities, leading to catastrophic flammability and air pollution values.

 

[Raledon]

Yes, but it's not easy to avoid that right now. We don't have volumetric resources yet, and the ability to build more of a thing is the main advantage of factories. I suppose they could just give a lot of hammers, but then the AI could try to build all factories in all its cities, leading to catastrophic flammability and air pollution values.

Factories could yield additional commerce, for example. This makes them more valuable, while giving the funds required to fight the pollution.
Also, flammability is not a thing after the prehistoric (ancient?) era. Haven't seen it act up at all.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Do me a favor here. If you try this, which is something I didn't try yet, test it against KaTiON_PT's game and see if it changes whether he can continue building the town halls he's got queued or not. I kinda doubt it. I'm trying to figure out why they suddenly can't be built. It might be caching keeping it still a problem even once the furniture prereq is removed or provided for but there's something else... it shows a 'date built' in its hover info as if its a wonder. I did find a duplicate BuildingClassInfo for this building but neither the original or the duplicate have any limits established on the building. Very odd. Do other games show this on buildings even if not wonders?

The building did not build and in fact there are none in the list of buildable buildings anymore.

He is in the Modern Era.

Also his Research, Culture, Espionage and Gold sliders are all off by 1 %. They still change by 5% increments but the max is 99%. So has he adjusted some files someplace? Or is his game corrupt now?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Factories could yield additional commerce, for example. This makes them more valuable, while giving the funds required to fight the pollution.
Also, flammability is not a thing after the prehistoric (ancient?) era. Haven't seen it act up at all.

Flammability iirc is/was tied to Random Events. Like you said, early game one of the buildings that can burn down is the Forge. But the Events were not updated for Flammability beyond that. As the Event maker moved on from the mod. There are no "flammability disaster buildings" even in the mod that I know of, except the Forge Random event. I can't think of any other.

As for the 2 pollutions, air and water, when they were added, and the buildings associated with them, the Old Hydro way of adding +5 (pollution) to everything was still in effect. It followed his pattern for Crime and Disease. Everything had to be a multiple of 5. Except 1 building, street cleaner. It removed originally 1 water and 1 air. I basically had to beg him to up it to at least 2 or 3. Later either he or Mr Azure started adding -1 air to all the "farm type resource buildings" for somewhat of a counter balance. But it too was never finished or balanced. Plus a regular game of C2C you never get the chance to build all the Plant variety and flower variety "farm" buildings available If you build the right foundation to open the chain.

We still have much to do with Most of these properties.

 

[raxo2222]

Out of curiosity I checked KATION's save to see hows turn times, and some other things.

Something is horribly wrong with improvement upgrade times.
Shaft mine can be built in 10 turns.
Normal mine can be build in 5 minutes.
It appears, that mine will upgrade in 165 turns to shaft mine in current state of game.
I know, that some techs speed up workers build action. Probably no one checked on this for too long.

Spoiler :

Also his Research, Culture, Espionage and Gold sliders are all off by 1 %. They still change by 5% increments but the max is 99%. So has he adjusted some files someplace? Or is his game corrupt now?

I use latest SVN and Toffers pedia.
Recalculated modifiers, and it appears change in 4% steps. I first clicked on "set to 100%" button though.

You can see how useful is my custom advisor by the way.

Spoiler :

AI cities are weirdly tiny. I see you are playing Eternity/Emperor/Standard settings.
As for space race it isn't too polished feature.

 

[tmv]

Factories could yield additional commerce, for example. This makes them more valuable, while giving the funds required to fight the pollution.

That would be less realistic (factories are not commerce buildings), and with rampant pollution even a few additional funds wouldn't help you (or the AI).

Also, flammability is not a thing after the prehistoric (ancient?) era. Haven't seen it act up at all.

I would not rely on one shortcoming to deal with another one. If you do this, the moment flammability is turned into a real problem, you have to deal with both problems at once.

As for the 2 pollutions, air and water, when they were added, and the buildings associated with them, the Old Hydro way of adding +5 (pollution) to everything was still in effect.

First of all the difference between the building "Factory" and the various resource producing factories needs to be worked out. Are the latter ones just "applications" of the Factory (not very realistic, but might work better with the game)? In that case it shouldn't add either pollution or flammability. Or is Factory more like a production area for the city, and the other buildings real factories by themselves? In that case the Factory shouldn't add (even though that would confuse new players for certain). The building Factory is vanilla, but I don't think there was the other type of factory.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Or is Factory more like a production area for the city, and the other buildings real factories by themselves?

Long ago the Industrial Park was supposed to emulate this.

The explosion of resource "factories" again iirc was a collaboration between hydro and Mr. Azure (who was extremely proficient at adding new buildings in mass quantities

First of all the difference between the building "Factory" and the various resource producing factories needs to be worked out.

Agree. Many of these specialized factories would in fact not produce either air or water or flammability. And if they are deemed they should then many preceding workshops need re-evaluated along these same lines. And original buildings that are in the Preh and ancient eras in fact need the (in some places) outlandish pollution malus removed. Which I'm an advocate of doing.

Are the latter ones just "applications" of the Factory (not very realistic, but might work better with the game)? In that case it shouldn't add either pollution or flammability.

See above reply.

.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Recalculated modifiers, and it appears change in 4% steps. I first clicked on "set to 100%" button though.

This is wrong. It's been always set to increment of 5%. If it's been changed were was the discussion and the reason for doing so? Surely this would've been noticed in other players games. And none of my personal games (4 current) have it in 4% increments, even with current SVN. That is why it stood out to me when looking at his save.

KatioN_PT's game has been "altered" and is not a standard C2C game. How I'm not sure, WB or file modding. But it is "off", not quite right.

 

[raxo2222]

This is wrong. It's been always set to increment of 5%. If it's been changed were was the discussion and the reason for doing so? Surely this would've been noticed in other players games. And none of my personal games (4 current) have it in 4% increments, even with current SVN. That is why it stood out to me when looking at his save.

Weird, then it looks like he changed it and became permament in this save.

Edit:
It seems like it was @Toffer90 change in his interface overhaul - among many modified files there is GlobalDefines.xml
<DefineName>COMMERCE_PERCENT_CHANGE_INCREMENTS</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>4</iDefineIntVal>

 

[Thunderbrd]

The nest thief building requires... something? In the vicinity. (TXT_KEY_REQUIRES_RAW_VICINITY_BONUS)

The text is wrong huh? Ok. I'll fix that. Raw vicinity bonus means that the resource must be within city radius but does not have to have a route or be worked or improved.

The argument goes "but if we don't obsolete them no one will build the newer versions

It's more than that. You shouldn't be able to build a hut in modern era. It's like units themselves... just shouldn't happen ever. To a point, sure, you can see a building, even an anachronism, being valid for a while, but after a margin, no longer. However, we've now discovered the HUGE problem with why Police Stations and such are breaking down and it was that furniture prereq being lost. It was never an obsoletion issue.

Global_CIV4GameText.xml was given the tag TXT_KEY_REQUIRES_RAW_IN_CITY_VICINITY in rev 9773, that was taken out in rev 9791 - double mistake.

Not a double mistake but a mistake on the second half of it... who accidentally overrode that??? Ok... we gotta get that back in. The poultry reference is a part of that string when called during it.

Yes, but it's not easy to avoid that right now. We don't have volumetric resources yet, and the ability to build more of a thing is the main advantage of factories. I suppose they could just give a lot of hammers, but then the AI could try to build all factories in all its cities, leading to catastrophic flammability and air pollution values.

That IS another problem, that the AI will happily build the fastest to build cheapest buildings first and waste a hell of a lot of production constructing every building in the upgrade chain in sequence.

Also, flammability is not a thing after the prehistoric (ancient?) era. Haven't seen it act up at all.

Might need some later era balancing. People weren't getting this far into the game when Hydro set those numbers up initially.

The building did not build and in fact there are none in the list of buildable buildings anymore.

He is in the Modern Era.

Also his Research, Culture, Espionage and Gold sliders are all off by 1 %. They still change by 5% increments but the max is 99%. So has he adjusted some files someplace? Or is his game corrupt now?

Thanks for confirming. It appears it's corrupt but I'll have to run a debug dll run on it later. Super weird about the sliders... didn't notice that. Thanks for the observation.

We still have much to do with Most of these properties.

Completely agree. A smoother gradient of increases was something I was asking of Hydro just before he started wandering off some.

That would be less realistic (factories are not commerce buildings), and with rampant pollution even a few additional funds wouldn't help you (or the AI).


I would not rely on one shortcoming to deal with another one. If you do this, the moment flammability is turned into a real problem, you have to deal with both problems at once.


First of all the difference between the building "Factory" and the various resource producing factories needs to be worked out. Are the latter ones just "applications" of the Factory (not very realistic, but might work better with the game)? In that case it shouldn't add either pollution or flammability. Or is Factory more like a production area for the city, and the other buildings real factories by themselves? In that case the Factory shouldn't add (even though that would confuse new players for certain). The building Factory is vanilla, but I don't think there was the other type of factory.

I have plans for addressing all these points that we can work together on as a team... just give us some time to polish off the release enough for now and afterwards we'll discuss those plans and if y'all have some other ideas to take into account. Much of the plan is to address these matters with zoning requirements, giving cause for generic buildings and specific ones and so on. Again, let's sort all that out post release.

KatioN_PT's game has been "altered" and is not a standard C2C game. How I'm not sure, WB or file modding. But it is "off", not quite right.

It might be the renumeration of the missions. AIAndy warned we could be causing some indexing problems for some games this way.

Edit:
It seems like it was @Toffer90 change in his interface overhaul - among many modified files there is GlobalDefines.xml
<DefineName>COMMERCE_PERCENT_CHANGE_INCREMENTS</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>4</iDefineIntVal>

That would certainly be a potential issue. Was this game running toffer's overhaul? Toffer... I'm not sure about this shift. Could be a little destabilizing in some areas of the code. At least for ongoing games suddenly shifting into this or away from this... aka, might not be a safe mid-game change. Not sure though. I doubt this is why the Town Halls are being invalidated somehow.

But if the original game is on Toffer's overhaul in the UI and more, then it's possible something is causing the Town Hall issue from that if we're testing the game without it. Maybe someone needs to test the game WITH it, trading for furniture before the end of turn of course.

 

[raxo2222]

That would certainly be a potential issue. Was this game running toffer's overhaul? Toffer... I'm not sure about this shift. Could be a little destabilizing in some areas of the code. At least for ongoing games suddenly shifting into this or away from this... aka, might not be a safe mid-game change. Not sure though. I doubt this is why the Town Halls are being invalidated somehow.

But if the original game is on Toffer's overhaul in the UI and more, then it's possible something is causing the Town Hall issue from that if we're testing the game without it. Maybe someone needs to test the game WITH it, trading for furniture before the end of turn of course.

Yes I have Toffers UI overhaul, he most likely has it too.
Here is screenshot from Toffers file.
This change causes increments/decrements to change by 4%.

Unmodified version is this:
<DefineName>COMMERCE_PERCENT_CHANGE_INCREMENTS</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>5</iDefineIntVal>

Spoiler :

My suspicion is that Kation got caught by obsoleteness completely unprepared - he researched industrialism, when he didn't got furniture (or other materials) factory.
Brick and Cement early producers are obsolete at rapid prototyping.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Indeed I'm running Toffer's overhaul, should've mentioned it when I made the bug report. :facepalm:

Though to keep it in record I've been playing this game since around early SVN 9700.