Single Player bugs and crashes v37 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of December 2016

[sayarf22]

Few more
1. City starts with 1 plot option seems broken. Barbs and Neandertals cities do not receive any culture, and never grow. So they stay with 1 plot and 1 population.
2. Not a bug, actually. Poison tips promotion seems huge imbalanced. 25% against all land units for almost all early classes. Just can't imagine a poisoned axe, or poisoned mace. Should apply only for strike teams, and maybe hunters. Not even for criminals.
3. Subdued animals can decrease unit cost. Not all but some: subdued pheasants, pigeons for example. This allows to build unlimited army early in the game. Not sure it is a bug, though, may be it designed so.
4. Investigate city mission for criminals - too easy. Exile provide 200 spy points, thief 400 and rogue 800. Also criminals have speed bonus for no terrain cost. So exile with forced march and "wood walker" can move a six tiles per turn, and rogue up to 8. Also Investigation mission description "it will consume unit" - but it doesn't, only moves to capitol. Each of this 3 things is huge imbalanced.
**edit
5. Ambusher unit graphics - it uses muskets.

 

[JosEPh_II]

1. City starts with 1 plot option seems broken. Barbs and Neandertals cities do not receive any culture, and never grow. So they stay with 1 plot and 1 population.

Option Start with 1 City tile not broken. NPCs (ie Barbs, Neanderthals, etc) are still a work in progress. They are being reviewed on how to best give enough culture to expand city to next ring of tiles.

2. Poison, very strong Promotion yes. But not everyone unfortunately can get Poison. Get if you can.
Dart frogs used to give poison like the poisonous snakes, but that for an unknown reason was removed by the author of the subdued animals.

3. Have never built an unlimited army, other costs are involved.

4.and 5. are part of the Law and Criminal system and it's author will have to answer these questions.

 

[Harrier]

Few more
1. City starts with 1 plot option seems broken. Barbs and Neandertals cities do not receive any culture, and never grow. So they stay with 1 plot and 1 population.
.

A game I started a few months ago (not updated) - Neanderthals are now in 2nd place (Now in Medieval with lots of cities.), so your assumptions are somewhat missguided.

 

[sayarf22]

A game I started a few months ago (not updated) - Neanderthals are now in 2nd place (Now in Medieval with lots of cities.), so your assumptions are somewhat missguided.

In not updated - they did, yes. In last SVN - they not. Barbs have have some culture buildings - but culture in their cities still at zero. Neanderthals doesn't have any culture buildings at all.

 

[Galadrion]

Sayarf22, Harrier - I get the feeling the two of you are talking at cross-purposes. It's important to distinguish between the Neanderthal Civilization and Neanderthal (barbarian-type) cities. The "civilized" Neanderthals (the ones that have an NPC empire and show up on the scoreboard) act just like any other empire and are, in fact, fairly strong competitors. The barbarian Neanderthals are pretty much single-city nation-states with truly lousy strategies, and they'll (for the most part) never develop or grow. From what I've read here, I get the impression that you, Harrier, are talking about the civilized version, while you, Sayarf22, are talking about the barbarian type. Quite different breeds, to be honest.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The "civilized" Neanderthals (the ones that have an NPC empire and show up on the scoreboard) act just like any other empire and are, in fact, fairly strong competitors.

One small correction, the Civilized Neanders are AI Players, the Barb Neanders are NPCs. Otherwise you are correct Galadrion.

The Culture for All Barb designations takes time to get out of the 1 City tile If that Option is used. We (T-brd and I) were discussing how to help the Barb "Nations" accrue enough Culture points to pop the next ring of tiles. But it has been placed on the To Do List.

 

[Sakura Matou]

In the latest SVN I noticed that the AI was not building ships when I got into Medeival Era. I tried to go in and build ships myself and I saw that I can no longer build a ship wright ((only can build dragon ship pirates strangly enough))

Updated,

I can get it to build now ((needed a sail weavers hut silly me, but AI isn't building any that I have seen. Also I am not sure if my SVN is updating due to me using Sparth's extra Civ mod add on.

The SVN version says 9682 although I did a fresh install using the SVN Today. I have attached a save file.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Your updates shouldn't be interrupted by using a modmod, especially one that doesn't change any of the core files and that one doesn't to the best of my knowledge. As for the ship issue, it's all about priorities and the AI obviously has other priorities coming up. It's something I'll keep in mind as I resolve some other issues that may be somehow related by making it difficult for the AI to GET to the point where they are willing to invest time and production into naval forces.

4. Investigate city mission for criminals - too easy. Exile provide 200 spy points, thief 400 and rogue 800. Also criminals have speed bonus for no terrain cost. So exile with forced march and "wood walker" can move a six tiles per turn, and rogue up to 8. Also Investigation mission description "it will consume unit" - but it doesn't, only moves to capitol. Each of this 3 things is huge imbalanced.

The description does need to be improved but it does still consume spies that attempt this mission. I think it might be time to diminish the amount you get but I did want to make criminals really good at that mission and you've exploited the forced march in a way I didn't expect because many find criminals very difficult to keep alive to GET to the city, although the speed could certainly help them avoid detection quite a bit. Clever. The AI is, or should be, using this mission now as well, although probably not with the same lethality and aggression which you are employing it there. Noted feedback, among many of the other things you've stated.

**edit
5. Ambusher unit graphics - it uses muskets.

It's not a musket... it's a blowgun that suspiciously looks a lot like a musket because the animation and item graphic was deconstructed FROM a musket. We are modders, not full time animation artists.

 

[Sakura Matou]

Great! Thanks T-Bird! Also is it normal for the SVN version to say 9682 in game still even though I updated to the newest version today?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Great! Thanks T-Bird! Also is it normal for the SVN version to say 9682 still even though I updated to the newest version today?

It will display the last SVN version that had a .dll change. 9683 thru 9691 have all been xml changes iirc. You can view the changes to the mod thru the SVN Changelog Thread. That Thread is for Modders only to post and or discuss the SVN changes they make to the Mod.

 

[Sakura Matou]

It will display the last SVN version that had a .dll change. 9683 thru 9691 have all been xml changes iirc. You can view the changes to the mod thru the SVN Changelog Thread. That Thread is for Modders only to post and or discuss the SVN changes they make to the Mod.

TYVM for this tidbit. Yes I am aware of the other thread and had no intentions of posting there

 

[sayarf22]

The description does need to be improved but it does still consume spies that attempt this mission.
...
It's not a musket... it's a blowgun that suspiciously looks a lot like a musket because the animation and item graphic was deconstructed FROM a musket. We are modders, not full time animation artists.

Criminals, not spies. I'm still in prehistoric ;-). I tried it many times, opening "full city visibility" level to almost all rivals - and never lost any, when running this mission. Lost only few - mostly to cats, or when they was spotted and killed in open field. Twice they got "wanted" status from city guards, but still were able to run their mission.
Yes, prohibiting forced march for criminals will make it much harder. Usually there are scouts, in ai cities.

And not - it is not blowgun, it shots with smoke and fire and soundshots. Usually have quick offense option on and quick defense - off. Not a critical thing, but you could assign another model for them, should be easy. May be it depends from nation - i played for Rome. Also saw them on Khmer. Save attached.

Another thing is workers (and any other 0 str units, i guess). When they work the tile, protected by warrior, entering this tile with criminal, with "stay the hand" status results killing worker. Same thing was in cities, in earlier version, but it seems fixed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Criminals, not spies

I realize that. Both criminals and spies can employ this mission and it works differently for each. The wording is still in place as if it's describing only the mission as it is performed by spies.

and never lost any, when running this mission.

Criminals have no chance of failure with this mission. Perhaps they should, making them visible and keeping them stuck there in the city for potential arrest at least. I wanted to eventually develop out a mechanism for that but at the moment, there's not really a way to base this on skill for the criminal and I didn't want it to be totally random chance like it is for spies, who very much can fail and be destroyed automatically in so doing. I didn't want to subject criminals to something that would auto destroy them or was not based on a developable skill factor. I'll circle back around to this eventually.

Twice they got "wanted" status from city guards, but still were able to run their mission.

The mission is intended to be an escape hatch for when you become wanted, sending the criminal back to the capital with some info to share.

but you could assign another model for them, should be easy

Far from easy, it can take months to develop a new model with animation. As there are no blowgun models made for civ, this was the best we got. It looks pretty good without the audio to go with it. Maybe that can somehow be decoupled. Not sure who on the team could achieve that though. We don't have an audio guy. The shoulder stock is removed from the model, if I'm not mistaken, to make it look a bit more blowgunnish.

When they work the tile, protected by warrior, entering this tile with criminal, with "stay the hand" status results killing worker.

There's a legitimate bug I'll need to address. Thanks for noticing that one.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Few minor bugs
1. Scoreboard and power graphs works incorrectly. Seems doesn't count new ai units when calculating military power. ctrl+shift+T helps, but you need to do it after every load. In "clean" v37 it proposed to recalculate, now it doesn.t. May be "ctrl+shift+T" should be executed automatically.
2. Animal flags. Previsious post said it requires "medium quality" - it just need checkbox "low resolution textures" to be off. May be just missing this LR files? Should be easy to fix.
3. On deity ai got additional "band of homosapiens" for 2nd city. It can protect itself and ai just send it unescorted. This left 2nd city unprotected for a while. May be this "tribal guardian" unit should be added to any city, which built by this band of HS?
4. I wondered what ai doing with captured civilians (from #3). It just adds them to their city - and next turn it shrinks back to size 1, wasting captives. May be add some check like "If GoingToSettle and TargetCityFoodSurplus < 0 Then DoNot".

We never addressed these either.
1) Very low priority to audit that section of the game as it does not influence play itself.
2) There are no 'low res' files that differ. It's just a matter of how the internal graphics engine works and we can't touch that. We're limited in many ways, particularly where the graphics engine and core programming is concerned and often we have to take guesswork. There are other known bugs we can't resolve for that same reason.
3) I don't personally work on python, which is where the tribal guardian spawn is programmed. Someone else will need to answer to this. You make a good point though.
4) Would have to look into what AI sequence the captured civilians are using and correct that in the code. That would be a good improvement. There are numerous fidgety AI matters like that... I'll have to start making a list of them as they are brought up. It's not really my current focus and I'm the only one who currently works on AI and my qualifications there are minimal so I often find I avoid it as much as possible because I tend to crack open bigger cans of worms than I want to be dealing with at the moment.

 

[sayarf22]

I wanted to eventually develop out a mechanism for that but at the moment

May be criminal should pass a check when entering the city, based on investigation/insidiousness rate of the city. For example 10 times harder compared to normal check when just staying the city already entered. More, if on forced march, or brought by sea transport, airlifted etc. And should spend all move points, to give police chance for arrest, if check failed.

Far from easy, it can take months to develop a new model with animation.

Oh, thats what you mean "suspiciously looks a lot like a musket". I said just to use another existing model, a javelin thrower for example. But if you like a blowgun - it is ok for me.

There's a legitimate bug I'll need to address. Thanks for noticing that one.

And visa versa - if for example, i have a worker, protected with invisible unit, with "surprise" status on, and somebody tries to capture it - he will capture. And only after this combat occurs. Even if my ambusher kills attacker - worker is needs to be "recaptured". Even if it is not worker, but weaker unit, like scout - attaker will kill scout first, and only after this ambush occurs

One more - ambusher special ability is to target any civilians, canines and explorers first. Description says that it work outside the city, but it also works when attacking the city. Same for field fortresses and towers.

Also, shouldn't the pillage mission for criminal to be replaced for sabotage improvement, as it is for strike teams?

 

[sayarf22]

And visa versa - if for example, i have a worker, protected with invisible unit, with "surprise" status on, and somebody tries to capture it - he will capture

it may be legal though, because already have a "standout" status. And "surprise" - is some kind of "bait tactics".

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have set the barbarian, neanderthal and bandit spawn rates to 0 in the A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines and yet they still spawn.

 

[raxo2222]

It seems like no one fixed that prehistoric small bug.

Spoiler :

"missing: morecivalerts"

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have set the barbarian, neanderthal and bandit spawn rates to 0 in the A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines and yet they still spawn.

hmm... all three? I'll have to look at how it's programmed to include those modifiers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

May be criminal should pass a check when entering the city, based on investigation/insidiousness rate of the city. For example 10 times harder compared to normal check when just staying the city already entered. More, if on forced march, or brought by sea transport, airlifted etc. And should spend all move points, to give police chance for arrest, if check failed.

I'd thought of something along those lines but I have bigger fish to fry at the moment and for the forseeable future. For now, I wanted to make them a little OP for StrategyOnly's sake.

Oh, thats what you mean "suspiciously looks a lot like a musket". I said just to use another existing model, a javelin thrower for example. But if you like a blowgun - it is ok for me.

Well, if you look at their combat classes, they use blowguns as their first priority, which according to design plans WILL matter later, so visually showing this is important. I don't play with audio on so that would certainly color things further I'm sure. Might have to get a better sound effect for him and it could come across a lot better.

And visa versa - if for example, i have a worker, protected with invisible unit, with "surprise" status on, and somebody tries to capture it - he will capture. And only after this combat occurs. Even if my ambusher kills attacker - worker is needs to be "recaptured".

Good description of the behavior. This is on the latest assets on the SVN right? Although you make a good point about a reason to keep this as the behavior, that one could use Standout for true defensive purposes and once I get it working properly (another known bug), the captive transport should make it so the captive cannot be attacked but would go down along with the captor when 'loaded', regardless, this effect you explain was never quite intended. And there are some interesting deep backend mechanics bugs taking place in this region of the code that I have to hunt down and kill. This explanation helps with that effort. Once I can get to it.

Even if it is not worker, but weaker unit, like scout - attaker will kill scout first, and only after this ambush occurs

This part, however... explain more what you mean? Like after the ambush initiated battle, the weaker 'visible' units are killed on the plot as well?

One more - ambusher special ability is to target any civilians, canines and explorers first. Description says that it work outside the city, but it also works when attacking the city. Same for field fortresses and towers.

This is a problem with the description now. This was changed. Problem is I don't know where to find the description because I'm not sure where it is displayed exactly. Is it on the unit's tool tip? Or elsewhere? Can you give me here an EXACT to the character quote of the text?

Also, shouldn't the pillage mission for criminal to be replaced for sabotage improvement, as it is for strike teams?

No. This is a key difference between the two classes. Criminals pillage for gain, and they also tend to do it better than most classes with the exception of Ruffians. Strike teams destroy for strategic purposes and at a cost.

it may be legal though, because already have a "standout" status. And "surprise" - is some kind of "bait tactics".

Provided it isn't part of the bug problem I was alluding to earlier, I would like to keep it this way for exactly this reason. The point WAS a bait tactic in the first place. Might as well leave it so the bait gets eaten regardless or it may end up too powerful a strategy.