Single Player bugs and crashes v38 plus (SVN) - After the 20th of February 2018

[Toffer90]

I went back and loaded the initial start of the above game and in each case the AI is starting with 2 Band of Homo Sapiens and 11 Stone Throwers. No Wanderers or Gatherers.

Can someone else confirm that this is the case when starting new games on Deity difficulty? I don't have a clean C2C installed at the moment, I'm currently checking if the "My Take on Stuff" modmod is working well on the latest SVN.

 

[strategyonly]

<iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>1</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
           <iAIStartingDefenseUnits>8</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
           <iAIStartingWorkerUnits>2</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
           <iAIStartingExploreUnits>2</iAIStartingExploreUnits>

1st line gives the extra Band of H.S.
2nd line gives the 8 defender (ST)
3rd is the workers
4th is the wanderers (explorer)

N.M Deity should be the same.

NM should NOT be the same as regular deity of so that is wrong . . .should be alot different

 

[Toffer90]

NM should NOT be the same as regular deity of so that is wrong . . .should be alot different

Nightmare does have three workers and three wanderers.
It used to have 2 more defenders too before rev 10014.
I guess starting defenders should be set to 10 (Currently 8) on nightmare now after deity got adjusted up to 8 starting defenders in rev. 10014.

Could you handle this Joe? I'm a bit preoccupied until tomorrow.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll commit an attempted fix to that event in a couple of hours.
EventTriggers can be enabled/disabled by gameoptions, but the choices (the events) cannot, so I'll have to use the pythonCanDo method to check the gameoption in question for that event choice.Not really that bad for the AI, on deity the AI has a 50% combat bonus against barbarians, on Nightmare they have a 70% combat bonus against barbs. So the AI may even benefit from more barbs in the game more than the human player in some instances.

The comment was more in defense of why workers may have holed up in the city. Its possible that the criminal may be causing it too.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Nightmare does have three workers and three wanderers.
It used to have 2 more defenders too before rev 10014.
I guess starting defenders should be set to 10 (Currently 8) on nightmare now after deity got adjusted up to 8 starting defenders in rev. 10014.

Could you handle this Joe? I'm a bit preoccupied until tomorrow.

Sure.

EDIT: Commit submitted.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Infinite loop (cant go to next turn)

Confirmed but out of time tonight to address it. I was hoping the other bugfix would have an impact on this one but it was wishful thinking.

 

[strategyonly]

Good for you... very bad for the AI. They aren't great at responding to threats with human precision.

But then shouldnt the worker have a unit that goes out and protects the worker . .

 

[JosEPh_II]

But then shouldnt the worker have a unit that goes out and protects the worker . .

That is why when I "updated" your NM Deity back to 10 defenders I also put workers at 4 and "explorer type" units also at 4. That should've covered the escort roles and the necessary number for each cities defense.

The previous change had odd numbers vs even numbers, ie 7 vs 10 for defenders.

This should also answer your question T-brd as to why the commit was made. To bring SO's NM back up to pre v38 levels in this regard and his behest.

 

[amjh]

Ducks seem to give a huge amount of XP, enough to give a fresh tracker two levels in some situations.

 

[Fermongu]

Snail/Gigantic/Deity.

Initial stone thrower don't gain any XP (still gets some promotions from fighting). When I upgrade it to slinger, then it begins to earn XP.

I train Ambushers and kill lots of other civ units, but earn very very very little XP.

 

[jatkinson]

Ok I started a new game (Deity/Eternity/Gigantic/C2CWorld) with SVN 10022 to see if Joseph's changes made a difference. Here I've just met Mansa Musa (after a long time wondering whether I was alone on this massive continent) and while he founded two cities he seems to have no desire to explore at all. I found many unique landmarks some of which close enough to him that he should have found first and finally to add insult to injury I discover this goody hut right next to one of his cities. There was a Bengal Tiger nearby (are these spawnng too early for the poor AI?) which killed my Scout (from a goody hut) but my Stone Spearman (also from a goody hut) managed to fend it off and get rid of it.

 

[Toffer90]

Ducks seem to give a huge amount of XP, enough to give a fresh tracker two levels in some situations.

I've reported this before too, I think there's an issue with the BUG option "Dynamic XP" that happens when the XP amount should be very close to 0.0. Instead of getting 0.0X you get 3-7 XP from ducks and other super weak animals...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok I started a new game (Deity/Eternity/Gigantic/C2CWorld) with SVN 10022 to see if Joseph's changes made a difference. Here I've just met Mansa Musa (after a long time wondering whether I was alone on this massive continent) and while he founded two cities he seems to have no desire to explore at all.

2 separate issues here. 1. the additional defenders etc Did allow the AI to found the 2nd city. Check that one as Good.
2. The lack of "observable exploration by the AI" on your part is just that a observation with no real base established if it is in fact true. The absence of hunting or recon units is concerning but no basis is established yet for why.

Goodie huts can be guarded by Neanderthal warriors or Barb units. Also you are on Deity. The rate of Good return on a nearby Goodie hut is Not the same as on Noble. Perhaps the AI did pop a goodie hut and got Hostile units out of it. Enough to kill off his wanderer/scout/ tracker for this time frame.

If you can actually observe one of it's units exploring you Might find out why it seems to struggle. Otherwise your assumption is still unfounded.

There was a Bengal Tiger nearby (are these spawnng too early for the poor AI?) which killed my Scout (from a goody hut) but my Stone Spearman (also from a goody hut) managed to fend it off and get rid of it.

And here because you received 2 good results from goodie huts have possibly assumed the same happened for the AI. That is just random probability. Odds are they did not.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've reported this before too, I think there's an issue with the BUG option "Dynamic XP" that happens when the XP amount should be very close to 0.0. Instead of getting 0.0X you get 3-7 XP from ducks and other super weak animals...

Is amjh perhaps also using Unlimited XP Option as well as dynamic?

@amjh,
Your statement without sufficient detail is just that, a statement. It is not enough to be presented as a bug or a problem. If you take a screenshot Before you kill a duck and then one After the kill/subdue, Then you have something tangible for us to work with. And a save before the kill and a save after the kill so the code can be observed. T-brd has been adamant about this. Otherwise your statement is just a statement and will be forgotten.

 

[hau]

SVN 10022
I've started new game and have some issues here. AI don't build gatherers and losing in progress.
AI don`t build new cities. I give one tribe and eight axemens and atlatlists - they just stand in city.
It's something strange after brilliant AI on start in SVN 10002.

 

[Toffer90]

Is amjh perhaps also using Unlimited XP Option as well as dynamic?

I usually don't use the "Unlimited XP" gameoption, so I know it happens without it.
I think it happens with the "Unlimited XP" ON as well because I played with it quite as bit two-three years ago and I remember the "too much XP from killing ducks" bug was around back then too.
I'm quite sure the bug is in the Dynamic XP BUG option.

Can someone else confirm that this is the case when starting new games on Deity difficulty? I don't have a clean C2C installed at the moment, I'm currently checking if the "My Take on Stuff" modmod is working well on the latest SVN.

I just confirmed it myself, AI starts with 11 stone throwers and 2 settlers on Deity difficulty.
They should start with 8 Stone Throwers, 2 Gatherers, 2 Wanderers, and 2 settlers.

Edit: {
Lol, of course, the AI don't have the techs for neither Wanderers or Gatherers, so the Stone Thrower is the best worker and explorer unit that the AI has access to...
How should we deal with this?
1. Code changes.
2. Give the AI Nomadic Lifestyle and Gathering techs when playing on Monarch or harder difficulty?
3. Remove tech prereq for the wanderer and gatherer?

Possible code change would be to add the ability to define exactly what unit represent the:

StartingDefenseUnits
StartingWorkerUnits
StartingExploreUnits​

per era in the CIV4EraInfos.xml file.

Then the code can just look up what unit it should add based on what era the game starts in.

I could alternatively make some python code that handles starting units per era-and-difficulty (the exact unit types would be defined inside the python code then), but it seems more appropriate to do it through xml and the dll.

I just started a game in Industrial era and the worker units I started with were "Great Farmers"... lol..
Having a way to actually define what the starting units should be seems like a sensible approach at improving later than prehistoric starts too.
}

 

[Thunderbrd]

But then shouldnt the worker have a unit that goes out and protects the worker . .

I've been trying to program that to happen but something isn't quite right with it yet. Nothing I want to try and tackle before a rerelease.

That is why when I "updated" your NM Deity back to 10 defenders I also put workers at 4 and "explorer type" units also at 4. That should've covered the escort roles and the necessary number for each cities defense.

The previous change had odd numbers vs even numbers, ie 7 vs 10 for defenders.

This should also answer your question T-brd as to why the commit was made. To bring SO's NM back up to pre v38 levels in this regard and his behest.

I wasn't asking why you made the commit... I understood that. I was asking if the unit types were different - They would be by AI once the game begins of course.

Ducks seem to give a huge amount of XP, enough to give a fresh tracker two levels in some situations.

The high level of withdrawal is causing that. I'm pretty sure. The math is a little wiggly based on odds and withdrawal chances and so on. I might take the withdrawal factor out entirely because it's causing a lot of commentary like this. Nothing to do with inifinite XP though. That only changes how much is kept after an upgrade to 'all of it'. And disables a couple limitations.

Snail/Gigantic/Deity.

Initial stone thrower don't gain any XP (still gets some promotions from fighting). When I upgrade it to slinger, then it begins to earn XP.

I train Ambushers and kill lots of other civ units, but earn very very very little XP.

The easier the fight, the less XP. Sounds like you're playing on the 'less XP option' which is actually called Dynamic XP. The description on Dynamic applies to whether it's on or off and really should only say: you get a lot less xp with this option.

Is amjh perhaps also using Unlimited XP Option as well as dynamic?
Again... as stated above, Unlimited XP never manipulates how much xp is awarded.
@amjh,
Your statement without sufficient detail is just that, a statement. It is not enough to be presented as a bug or a problem. If you take a screenshot Before you kill a duck and then one After the kill/subdue, Then you have something tangible for us to work with. And a save before the kill and a save after the kill so the code can be observed. T-brd has been adamant about this. Otherwise your statement is just a statement and will be forgotten.

I get this one so there's not a mystery needed to be solved. I could just rip out the withdrawal consideration and be done with it. Otherwise the math just gets much too complicated - already a little too much as it is imo.

SVN 10022
I've started new game and have some issues here. AI don't build gatherers and losing in progress.
AI don`t build new cities. I give one tribe and eight axemens and atlatlists - they just stand in city.
It's something strange after brilliant AI on start in SVN 10002.

RE: Settlers - It appears not all suffer from the same affliction. Something is causing them to think they don't have good city sites to found on when they have perfectly good sites. It's possible the caching isn't clearing when it should be for that lengthy recalculation of valid city sites. Very complicated caching on that.

@alberts2: did you set that up or was that koshling? Or other perhaps? It's a very clever design, but I think something in the works is broken there. Some help to find the problem would be awesome because it's pretty intricate and I don't want to screw it up worse.

They've always been a little too reluctant with gatherers because they are one shot units. They only build as much as they need to improve for their population so are a little behind their own curve there and slow to get the improvements made and progress can easily be hurt by barb incursions - which can kill the workers, raze the improvements, and set things back even farther. We might have to treat the one shot units no differently than full workers. I know as a player I hardly treat them different... just have to deal with their losses when they go.

 

[hau]

Settlers - It appears not all suffer from the same affliction. Something is causing them to think they don't have good city sites to found on when they have perfectly good sites. It's possible the caching isn't clearing when it should be for that lengthy recalculation of valid city sites. Very complicated caching on that.

I've used different map script for current game. I will try to use the same as I use for 10002. May be it significantly for AI.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>
I just confirmed it myself, AI starts with 11 stone throwers and 2 settlers on Deity difficulty.
They should start with 8 Stone Throwers, 2 Gatherers, 2 Wanderers, and 2 settlers.

Edit: {
Lol, of course, the AI don't have the techs for neither Wanderers or Gatherers, so the Stone Thrower is the best worker and explorer unit that the AI has access to...
How should we deal with this?
1. Code changes.
2. Give the AI Nomadic Lifestyle and Gathering techs when playing on Monarch or harder difficulty?
3. Remove tech prereq for the wanderer and gatherer?

Possible code change would be to add the ability to define exactly what unit represent the:

StartingDefenseUnits
StartingWorkerUnits
StartingExploreUnits​

per era in the CIV4EraInfos.xml file.

Then the code can just look up what unit it should add based on what era the game starts in.

I could alternatively make some python code that handles starting units per era-and-difficulty (the exact unit types would be defined inside the python code then), but it seems more appropriate to do it through xml and the dll.

I just started a game in Industrial era and the worker units I started with were "Great Farmers"... lol..
Having a way to actually define what the starting units should be seems like a sensible approach at improving later than prehistoric starts too.
}

That's right the Free starting techs were removed! So the Types of units the AI would now get is only the base start units, ie Stone Throwers. Oops! Maybe the Deity and NM Deity AI should get some of those Free Tech back? Would be Much simpler than writing new Python code. Don't you think so? Actually all Handicap levels that got Free Tech at start for AI should be put back in like you stated. Simple fix really.

 

[Fermongu]

The easier the fight, the less XP. Sounds like you're playing on the 'less XP option' which is actually called Dynamic XP. The description on Dynamic applies to whether it's on or off and really should only say: you get a lot less xp with this option.

I have always played with Dynamic XP on, but I have only see this behaviour since a few SVN versions ago.