The 2024 US Presidential Election

[Ziggy Stardust]

He also had a great healthcare plan

 

[Sommerswerd]

Do you see any tension between this:

I am not planning to vote for Biden because the electoral college means my vote is purely performative in any case, and Biden has, to put it lightly, not inspired me to take performative action on his behalf.

and this?:

And even where the Supreme Court is going to strike things down, I think there's political benefit in doing the thing and making the Court strike it down because it demonstrates commitment to the thing, e.g. how Trump just went ahead and did stuff and some of it did get struck down but he thereby demonstrated to his people that he was serious and wanted the things.

In other words, aren't you asking/expecting/demanding that Democrats in office do... what you are excusing yourself from doing, ie., performative action?

To be clear, I'm not trying to convince you to go vote for Biden. I'm just pointing out that you seem to be exhibiting the very nihilism that you are accusing the Democrats in office of... which raises the question... Why would they be any different from you? Or maybe more specifically, why do you get to expect/demand them to think/behave any differently/better than you?... are you voting for them?

 

[Gori the Grey]

To be clear, I'm not trying to convince you to go vote for Biden.

I am. And I said I'd watch my moments. This is one:

View attachment 686190

I'd still vote Dems for Congress but we don't get Congressional representation up in here

It's not for "old times' sake." It's for the future. In particular, the period immediately after the election. Because Trump is Trump, we now need to win not only the election, but the period after the election. A massive popular vote total helps do that. No need for a specific reply, Lex. It's the same argument you've already rejected (but this just let me phrase it differently; who knows when a different phrasing/framing might win you over; you need only reply if one does.)

 

[Gorbles]

"you've got to vote for the guy I want because if you don't that's negative consequences for me"

"what about negative consequences for folk currently living under the Democrats?"

"for meeeeeeeeeee"

Is all I'm hearing here.

Y'all need to be a bit more convincing, I think. This line was already rolled out in 2016 and 2020. Now we're seeing it again, and the whole while marginalised demographics have been getting nothing but scraps. You can talk about "performative", you can wield the cudgel of "nihilism" or whatever's working this time, but you if you can't manage to understand that the people you are trying to convince have valid reasons to not believe in either party, then that's your failure. You need to square with that, without other-ing the people who have successfully been alienated by the Democratic Party itself.

 

[Lexicus]

In other words, aren't you asking/expecting/demanding that Democrats in office do... what you are excusing yourself from doing, ie., performative action?

Yes, because no one gives a hoot about what I do (I know it is hard to believe due to my absolute star power here in CFC:OT, but out in the world, I'm just anonymous office drone #763949) but a lot of people do pay attention to and care about what Biden and Dems in Congress do?


Performative stuff is sometimes a politician's job. It's not my job as a voter.

I'm just pointing out that you seem to be exhibiting the very nihilism that you are accusing the Democrats in office of.

I'm not really accusing them of nihilism so much as conservatism. Temperamental conservatism as in a reulctance to push the envelope as such, and political conservatism as in a reluctance to push the envelope for anything that isn't a corporate subsidy or killing people.

 

[Remorseless1]

"you've got to vote for the guy I want because if you don't that's negative consequences for me"

"what about negative consequences for folk currently living under the Democrats?"

"for meeeeeeeeeee"

Is all I'm hearing here.

Y'all need to be a bit more convincing, I think. This line was already rolled out in 2016 and 2020. Now we're seeing it again, and the whole while marginalised demographics have been getting nothing but scraps. You can talk about "performative", you can wield the cudgel of "nihilism" or whatever's working this time, but you if you can't manage to understand that the people you are trying to convince have valid reasons to not believe in either party, then that's your failure. You need to square with that, without other-ing the people who have successfully been alienated by the Democratic Party itself.

Which people have negative affected by Democratic policies? Are they...
-Faux evangelicals who want to legislate their "morality" onto the rest of us?
- Companies whose bottom line us impacted by workplace safety and environmental regulations?
- Multinational corporations who want to pay employees next to nothing and even less in taxes?
- The one percent who want to keep all the special goodies they get from Congress?
- Racist white nationalists who want to institute an authoritarian regime?

Did I miss anyone?

 

[Lexicus]

Which people have negative affected by Democratic policies? Are they...
-Faux evangelicals who want to legislate their "morality" onto the rest of us?
- Companies whose bottom line us impacted by workplace safety and environmental regulations?
- Multinational corporations who want to pay employees next to nothing and even less in taxes?
- The one percent who want to keep all the special goodies they get from Congress?
- Racist white nationalists who want to institute an authoritarian regime?

Did I miss anyone?

6 year old girls in Gaza?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Y'all need to be a bit more convincing, I think. This line was already rolled out in 2016 and 2020. Now we're seeing it again, and the whole while marginalised demographics have been getting nothing but scraps. You can talk about "performative", you can wield the cudgel of "nihilism" or whatever's working this time, but you if you can't manage to understand that the people you are trying to convince have valid reasons to not believe in either party, then that's your failure. You need to square with that, without other-ing the people who have successfully been alienated by the Democratic Party itself.

Again... I'm not trying to convince you to vote for Biden or Democrats or anyone. There are plenty of reasons, justifications, excuses, etc., to not vote for Biden or whoever, and/or not vote at all.

Performative stuff is sometimes a politician's job. It's not my job as a voter.

Voting is a right, not a job, so this isn't a meaningful comparison. My point, which you seemed to concede, is that you are holding in your mind a double standard for yourself vis-a-vis other people... which is your right, of course. You've no obligation to be intellectually consistent. One of the most important parts of a politician's "job" is to get elected. Saying that the Democrats should fight the good fight while you yourself refuse to do so "because its pointless" seems inconsistent.

 

[Akka]

Voting is a right, not a job, so this isn't a meaningful comparison.

Voting is also a duty, not just a right.
One who doesn't participate in the decision-making has no legitimacy to complain about the decisions taken.

 

[Sommerswerd]

One who doesn't participate in the decision-making has no legitimacy to complain about the decisions taken.

George Carlin famously disagrees (45 seconds):

 

[Remorseless1]

6 year old girls in Gaza?

Dude, as much as I hate the stuff going on in Gaza, neither Palestinians nor the Israelis vote. The guy I quoted was talking domestic politics. Frankly, MAGA loves what's going on in Gaza. And even more frankly, the US support of Israel has been bipartisan for decades -- it's a national issue, not one that can be blamed on one particular party or ideology.

Think about it. After Oct. 7, hate crimes against Jews and Muslims increased dramatically. But the national outage was only about antisemitism directed at Jews. Harvard's president was sacked for her evenhanded approach to the harassment of Jews and Muslims. Reflexive support for Israel is nation-wide..

 

[Gorbles]

Which people have negative affected by Democratic policies? Are they...
-Faux evangelicals who want to legislate their "morality" onto the rest of us?
- Companies whose bottom line us impacted by workplace safety and environmental regulations?
- Multinational corporations who want to pay employees next to nothing and even less in taxes?
- The one percent who want to keep all the special goodies they get from Congress?
- Racist white nationalists who want to institute an authoritarian regime?

Did I miss anyone?

The folks who were sold an election on codifying Roe? The LGBTQ posters in this very thread that have spent time and time again demonstrating why the Democrats aren't helping them?

These people aren't looking forward to the Republicans either, right? But "this party is better than the other party" is always going to be the line in a two party state. It doesn't fix anything. It doesn't even seem to improve anything. Like I said, it's the same line that folks pushed on people in 2020 and 2016. I have no doubt it'll be the line again in 2028.

It's been the same in the UK since our third option imploded a decade ago. And all the while the quality of politics (and opposition) has dwindled, to the extent that we're looking at two very similar manifestos, just one that's more extreme than the other. Which makes it worse, but doesn't make the less extreme version good. It doesn't confer any advantages, just (arguably) less of the same disadvantages. That, again, is not going to fix anything that's wrong with the UK. It's going to take us down the same path, just more slowly.

Again... I'm not trying to convince you to vote for Biden or Democrats or anyone. There are plenty of reasons, justifications, excuses, etc., to not vote for Biden or whoever, and/or not vote at all.

So, uh, what is the argument, exactly? Simply wagging your finger at folks daring to criticise the Democrats on an online gaming forum?

This little tangent (as far as I was involved) came from an LGBTQ poster talking about their experience with the political apparatus of the US. You and Gori for sure have slightly different arguments, but you are both trying some interesting things in trying to rationalise why people might not be voting for Biden (or might be, but still have valid complaints about the process).

There are plenty of reasons and justifications for not voting for Biden. But it's the why that seems to matter, and you seem to take a very dim view of peoples' motivations, here. Just my opinion, obviously.

 

[Narz]

Performative stuff is sometimes a politician's job. It's not my job as a voter.

Ask not what your country can do for you...

 

[Lexicus]

Voting is a right, not a job, so this isn't a meaningful comparison. My point, which you seemed to concede, is that you are holding in your mind a double standard for yourself vis-a-vis other people... which is your right, of course. You've no obligation to be intellectually consistent. One of the most important parts of a politician's "job" is to get elected. Saying that the Democrats should fight the good fight while you yourself refuse to do so "because its pointless" seems inconsistent.

My whole point is that the Dems passing a law to make the Court strike it down is that it would demonstrate that they actually want to get things done. Not even trying rather gives the impression that they're using the courts as an excuse not to do something they just don't really care about very much.

I don't really see the inconsistency because I'm not a politician trying to convince anyone to vote for me. If I were running for office (or better yet, reelection), I would definitely be taking performative action to try to demonstrate commitment on various issues where substantive action proved impossible for whatever reason.

This is not really something I'm saying the Democrats are obligated to do, it's something I'm saying they should be doing because it's good politics.

I as a voter am not committed to running up Joe Biden's popular vote count and so I'm not going to take performative action to that end. If you want to retort "well the Dems are not committed to x outcome so they're not going to take performative action to that end" that's exactly my criticism and (part of) the reason I don't care about running up Biden's vote count.

Anyway the main reason I can't vote for Biden isn't lack of performative action on things the courts are going to strike down, it's the substantive action he's taken to enable and assist in some of the worst crimes against humanity that have occurred in my lifetime. And no words anyone on this website can type will make me forget that.

Of course, if I lived in Pennsylvania, the opposite would apply. No one could stop me from voting for Biden in a state where it might affect the outcome of the election because however bad Biden's been, Trump's gonna be worse.

 

[Remorseless1]

The folks who were sold an election on codifying Roe? The LGBTQ posters in this very thread that have spent time and time again demonstrating why the Democrats aren't helping them?

These people aren't looking forward to the Republicans either, right? But "this party is better than the other party" is always going to be the line in a two party state. It doesn't fix anything. It doesn't even seem to improve anything. Like I said, it's the same line that folks pushed on people in 2020 and 2016. I have no doubt it'll be the line again in 2028.

It's been the same in the UK since our third option imploded a decade ago. And all the while the quality of politics (and opposition) has dwindled, to the extent that we're looking at two very similar manifestos, just one that's more extreme than the other. Which makes it worse, but doesn't make the less extreme version good. It doesn't confer any advantages, just (arguably) less of the same disadvantages. That, again, is not going to fix anything that's wrong with the UK. It's going to take us down the same path, just more slowly.


So, uh, what is the argument, exactly? Simply wagging your finger at folks daring to criticise the Democrats on an online gaming forum?

This little tangent (as far as I was involved) came from an LGBTQ poster talking about their experience with the political apparatus of the US. You and Gori for sure have slightly different arguments, but you are both trying some interesting things in trying to rationalise why people might not be voting for Biden (or might be, but still have valid complaints about the process).

There are plenty of reasons and justifications for not voting for Biden. But it's the why that seems to matter, and you seem to take a very dim view of peoples' motivations, here. Just my opinion, obviously.

It's the Republicans that are making life unbearable for the LGBTQ community, they're the ones wanting to make women second class citizens. Voting matters. If Biden had a Democrat majority in the House, things could be better. If there were fewer GOP-dominated state legislatures, things would be even better.

But the Democrats aren't perfect, so eff them, right?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yes, because no one gives a hoot about what I do (I know it is hard to believe due to my absolute star power here in CFC:OT, but out in the world, I'm just anonymous office drone #763949)

As we all are. No one gives a hoot what we as individuals do. But added together ir's called democracy.

Besides. You care what you do (I assume). So, maybe do it for yourself?

Edit: read your follow up post. And .... I can relate. Last time I voted I did feel that way as well. Voted for a candidate which I felt was the better option, even if I didn't really support that candidate.

 

[Gorbles]

It's the Republicans that are making life unbearable for the LGBTQ community, they're the ones wanting to make women second class citizens. Voting matters. If Biden had a Democrat majority in the House, things could be better. If there were fewer GOP-dominated state legislatures, things would be even better.

But the Democrats aren't perfect, so eff them, right?

Sticking your head in the sand and insisting that if Biden just had more power, it'd be magical rainbows for everyone, is exactly the same "cudgel" marginalised folks find being used on them in these kinds of discussions.

Nobody said anything about "eff" the Democrats. You're projecting an imaginary fear instead of listening to the real fear of marginalised demographics. But at the same time, homophobes, transphobes and the like are not the sole province of the Republican Party or its base. The same goes for anti-abortion folks. Plenty of those to be found in the Democrat Party. Lexi already linked a piece on Biden's public speaking on that particular subject!

 

[lymond]

It means so much more than just Biden votes, Sir Lex

 

[Comrade Ceasefire]

I as a voter am not committed to running up Joe Biden's popular vote count and so I'm not going to take performative action to that end.

And you can always find ways to be politically involved and have a much larger influence than just casting a vote. After all, the person who is elected is usually the one fewer people don't want rather than the one most people want as their rep.

About 4 years ago I read that in US small country towns with roughly equal numbers of Dems and Republicans local politics was least likely to be polarised and rancorous. Locals know why there are in a particular predicament, know what has to be done, and find ways to work together to improve their situation.

Four years ago is ancient history, so it could have changed drastically since then. Shrug.

 

[Core Imposter]

You're effing kidding, right? Trump didn't build his wall, he didn't make the tax system more fair, he didn't bring manufacturing jobs back to the US, he didn't solve Social Security funding issues, he botched the response to Covid and exacerbated the uproar during the civil rights protests in 2020. By pulling out of the Trans Pacific Trade agreement, Asian nations signed trade agreements with China. By pulling out of the Six Powers agreement, he enable Iran to resume its quest for nuclear weapons. He didn't repeal the ACA either.

Trump's administration was an abject failure on every count. He delivered on almost none of his campaign promises while causing the biggest challenge to the Constitution in history. People who vote for Trump are either suckers or wannabe fascists.

He did do the one thing that was most important by a magnitude of "whatever the biggest conceivable multiplier is". So, I kid you not. Feel free to call me more names.