[RD] The problems caused by Multiculturalism

[Ryika]

Immigrants should learn the language of the country they immigrate into, and obey laws, values, and traditions of their host countries. Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a lie.

- Angela Merkel

Multiculturalism, aka the belief that cultures can live side by side, leads to problems, including social strife and a lack of consistent, shared cultural values. It's a romantic idea, but it does not work in my opinion; or at least not very well.

I'm from Germany, and here in Germany, we have real problems with large communities of Arabs, people from conservative-Muslim countries, and to a lesser extend some Eastern European countries who are basically not able to take part in German society because of language barriers, and because they lack the basic abilities to take part in the job market (such as, showing up to work on a regular basis), and it's bad for everybody. For them, because they don't have the ability to take part in the "pursuit of happiness" so to speak, and for the rest of Germany because it creates high-crime areas, and those inevitably spill into the rest of the city.

This situation was caused not only be complete neglect in the past - when after WW2, large numbers of mostly Turkish, workers (but also from countries such as Tunisia and Morocco) came to help rebuild the country, integration was not even an issue that was on the table, partly because people thought they would go back to their country of origin once the work is done - it is also currently made worse by the refugee crises, because the number of people who have entered and stayed in the country is just way too big to have "Personal German lessons" for each individual newcomer. But still, we have to try to integrate them as much as possible, and expect them to be willing to become... well, cultural Germans.

In my opinion, any country that is trying to stand the test of time should make sure that immigrants are not only supplied with the tools they need to integrate into the society as it exists, they should be required to use these tools if they want to stay. Those who refuse, should be deported whenever possible. Making sure immigrants respect not only the laws, but respect and adopt the values of the host country, and not segregate into their own communities where they live in parallel societies, is not something that should be optional, it should be expected from every citizen.

 

[Berzerker]

conservatives, ugh

sorry, RD thread...

Okay, lemme try to add to that.

Every country with an influx of immigrants will have to put up with multiculturalism for a while. Thats okay... Germany's trouble stems from a massive influx.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Germany took too many at the same time, and not enough of them were families units. Last I read was Germany had planned to step up deportations to 100k and set to accelerate
Generally it takes the next generation to integrate, German welfare system looks similar Japan if you dont work or dont have family it looks like you are going to be homeless

 

[Birdjaguar]

Time will solve those multicultural problems caused by immigration. Be patient. One to two generations will usually do it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Over here its the right that is pro immigration, here its the left that campaign against it.

In New Zealand though we have 4.5 million people but are having 120k a year arrive (per capita way higher than Germany), with 50k leaving. Per capita we have been taking in close to 2-1 the German numbers for the last few years.

Here it has definitely had an impact though with house prices being unaffordable for average NZers in our biggest city, in 9 years the big city went from left leaning to right leaning, only 40% of the population there is born in NZ, and wages have been stagnant due to lots of cheap labout (Pizza delivery is Indians), my brothers kids are at a kindergarten were 75% of the class is Chinese.

Its caused all sorts of problems here with population rising faster than spending in health for example, 20 years average wages to buy a house, supply and demand on wages (more labour= low pay rises), pressure on infrastructure.

Immigrants do not automatically improve a country and a few do not integrate well.

Being opposed to immigration does not make you a racist and some cultural values are very antithetical to liberal western values.

 

[stinkubus]

Why is this racist drivel permitted here?

 

[Hehehe]

Germany took too many at the same time, and not enough of them were families units. Last I read was Germany had planned to step up deportations to 100k and set to accelerate
Generally it takes the next generation to integrate, German welfare system looks similar Japan if you dont work or dont have family it looks like you are going to be homeless

Time will solve those multicultural problems caused by immigration. Be patient. One to two generations will usually do it.

You guys think that time will fix this? I guess that would depend on what you mean by integration. I'm sure that in 2 or 3 generations, those people will learn to speak German. But as far as the other stuff (crime rates, education, performance in the job market) that will never be fixed, or at least not before we can use CRISPR for gene editing. I mean it is fairly obvious that there are differences in the average intelligence of different peoples, and that these differences are of genetic origin

Intelligence is associated with important economic and healthrelated
life outcomes. Despite intelligence having substantial
heritability (0.54) and a confirmed polygenic nature, initial
genetic studies were mostly underpowered. Here we report a
meta-analysis for intelligence of 78,308 individuals. We identify
336 associated SNPs (METAL P < 5 × 10−8) in 18 genomic loci,
of which 15 are new. Around half of the SNPs are located inside
a gene, implicating 22 genes, of which 11 are new findings.
Gene-based analyses identified an additional 30 genes (MAGMA
P < 2.73 × 10−6), of which all but one had not been implicated
previously. We show that the identified genes are predominantly
expressed in brain tissue, and pathway analysis indicates the
involvement of genes regulating cell development (MAGMA
competitive P = 3.5 × 10−6). Despite the well-known difference
in twin-based heritability for intelligence in childhood (0.45)
and adulthood (0.80), we show substantial genetic correlation
(rg = 0.89, LD score regression P = 5.4 × 10−29). These findings
provide new insight into the genetic architecture of intelligence.

Published Genome Wide Association Studies (GWAS), reporting the presence of alleles exhibiting significant and replicable associations with IQ, are reviewed. The average between-population frequency (polygenic score) of nine alleles positively and significantly associated with intelligence is strongly correlated to country-level IQ (r = .91). Factor analysis of allele frequencies furthermore identified a metagene with a similar correlation to country IQ (r = .86). The majority of the alleles (seven out of nine) loaded positively on this metagene. Allele frequencies varied by continent in a way that corresponds with observed population differences in average phenotypic intelligence. Average allele frequencies for intelligence GWAS hits exhibited higher inter-population variability than random SNPs matched to the GWAS hits or GWAS hits for height. This indicates stronger directional polygenic selection for intelligence relative to height. Random sets of SNPs and Fst distances were employed to deal with the issue of autocorrelation due to population structure. GWAS hits were much stronger predictors of IQ than random SNPs. Regressing IQ on Fst distances did not significantly alter the results nonetheless it demonstrated that, whilst population structure due to genetic drift and migrations is indeed related to IQ differences between populations, the GWAS hit frequencies are independent predictors of aggregate IQ differences.

 

[Borachio]

You guys think that time will fix this? I guess that would depend on what you mean by integration. I'm sure that in 2 or 3 generations, those people will learn to speak German. But as far as the other stuff (crime rates, education, performance in the job market) that will never be fixed, or at least not before we can use CRISPR for gene editing. I mean it is fairly obvious that there are differences in the average intelligence of different peoples, and that these differences are of genetic origin

Well, there you go.

What can I say about that?

I'm pretty sure that IQ testing isn't an incontrovertible process, for starters.

You seem to have little doubt that people will learn to speak German (language learning being one of the most intensive of the many brain activities) but at the same time won't be able to avoid falling into crime, and won't be able to find jobs.

I think this is very strange, and contradictory.

 

[FriendlyFire]

You guys think that time will fix this? I guess that would depend on what you mean by integration. I'm sure that in 2 or 3 generations, those people will learn to speak German. But as far as the other stuff (crime rates, education, performance in the job market) that will never be fixed, or at least not before we can use CRISPR for gene editing. I mean it is fairly obvious that there are differences in the average intelligence of different peoples, and that these differences are of genetic origin

Thats why Germany is deporting 100k per year and they hoping to deport 150k the next year ramping it up to sort the wheat from the charff
No Citizenship for those that dont learn german and have a stable job, Germany can at anytime Dublin them back to Greece or Bulgaria

 

[Terxpahseyton]

German welfare system looks similar Japan if you dont work or dont have family it looks like you are going to be homeless

Not sure what gave you that idea.
On principle everyone has the right to be provided with the basic necessities of life to be able to live in dignity (so the constitutional court says - dignity is a big thing in the German constitution). What you get is not a lump sum but a calculated aggregate depending on all kind of things: the start is over 400€ pocket money, now add to that rent, heating, health insurance, I believe other bills and extra money for furniture or a fridge orororororor and in the end you got a total worth of maybe 800€, possibly more, possibly a bit less. That is over one thousand US dollars, going merely by the exchange rate. And this is like a basic right for everyone. Which can be infringed on if you refuse to cooperate with the authorities on things like looking like you are looking for a job and other stuff. But what that means is - unless you are such a negligent idiot that really someone should be legally in charge of you, you are set for life.

Absolutely no one needs to be homeless in Germany (though some even manage that)

Refugees get a worse deal, overall, but they still enjoy one of the best social nets you will find on this planet.

The idea of just leaving people hanging there with nothing is kinda crazy to Germans.
This understanding is what I am most worried about when it comes to immigration. It sets some pretty hard natural limits who and how many can join the fun. It would be easier if we did it the American way and just let them rot in run-down neighborhoods where once in a while the police comes in to record a murder.
Of course some immigration won't threaten that, and I never was worried about that. The refugee crisis changed that.

A more immediate concern is that it is statistically established that certain geographical immigrant groups really suck at catching up. In the 3rd or 4th generation! Rather, it gets worse. The area I am thinking of is Anatolia. And measures I am thinking of is crime, but way more crucially education. And again: note that this only applies to some immigrant groups. Others are doing swell. But I said this stuff before....

At the bottom line, I don't really care how German you are (is this the right place to say that I got immigrant friends ). But I wish for a certain socialization which makes life together easy and mutually beneficial. That hasn't worked well with some (but with others it has) and it definitely does not look like it would work well with the refugees overall, or peter out in a generation or two

At the very last, a bit of non-representative stereo-type reaffirming anecdote.
In recent years, I worked together with many immigrants. Vietnamese, Russians, Mongolese and even an Iraqi Yazidi who fled Iraq before the IS yet had materialized and burned his home to the ground. All were proper cool people, even more work spirit than the average German, I dare to say.
Last year I also had the chance to see a member of the recent refugee wave in work action and boy, this guy was the biggest disaster I had seen for myself so far. Didn't take long for him to get fired. Before that, he did quit himself after a short while because people were always criticizing his work (no he was not bullied for his background, he just had no idea how to freaking do a menial task like a normal human being does around here). What do you do with such people? They will have to work harder to achieve the same, instead they come from a crappy level and their social surrounding will only help to keep them down (which, you know, are other young refugees with nothing but time, testosterone and a big bucket full of frustration on their hands). Things couldn't look much worse in that regard, really.

 

[Snerk]

Multiculturalism is problematic. It's just a lot less problematic than cultural assimilation. Which has also been tried in Europe, with very little success I might add. In fact, in comparison, multiculturalism has been very successful.

In a way Merkel just used the refugee crisis as an excuse to import masses of much needed labour. Multiculturalism and AfD are problems, but problems one can try and deal with.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Well the economy (as represented by their associations) in deed were at first font of many fresh young men. I mean come on - employers always love more potential employees. That's basic math. But even they could see that it wouldn't work quite like that and eventually back-paddled.

The biggest fan of Merkels policy however was the public media. It has been established that about 95% of all coverage of refugees was decidedly tainted in a positive light, and about 5% dared to raise questions, problemize the whole thing. And presumably they all came from the East German public media (which, interestingly, I have found to have the best track record of being not trapped by ideology - relatively speaking)
Which is exactly what I had witnessed at the time and could barely believe. Them Germans still love to march in uniform

Then those same "journalists" wonder with all their integrity and of course all their solemn earnestness weather there is a sort of divide between the people and the public media... hm..... Nah it is just those racist East Germans I think.

.... So wow, I think I managed to get it all off my chest within two posts. Now I really need to do something else, preferably an hour ago.... (and I actually only wanted to outline how German basic welfare works, honest)

 

[Hehehe]

Well, there you go.

What can I say about that?

I'm pretty sure that IQ testing isn't an incontrovertible process, for starters.

The most popular IQ tests include items which test mathematical ability, pattern recognition, short-term memory, verbal comprehension, and vocabulary. They are not perfect measures of intelligence, but they predict how smart a person’s peers say they are as well as how well people do in school and on the job (Denissen et al., 2011; Palhusand and Morgan, 1997; Bailey and Hatch, 1979; Bailey and Mattetal, 1977). In fact, IQ is a better predictor of income and educational attainment than parental socio-economic status is (Strenze, 2006).

Psychometricians generally regard IQ tests as having high statistical reliability.[9][55] A high reliability implies that – although test-takers may have varying scores when taking the same test on differing occasions, and although they may have varying scores when taking different IQ tests at the same age – the scores generally agree with one another and across time. Like all statistical quantities, any particular estimate of IQ has an associated standard error that measures uncertainty about the estimate. For modern tests, the standard error of measurement is about three points. Clinical psychologists generally regard IQ scores as having sufficient statistical validity for many clinical purposes.[22][56][57] In a survey of 661 randomly sampled psychologists and educational researchers, published in 1988, Mark Snyderman and Stanley Rothman reported a general consensus supporting the validity of IQ testing. "On the whole, scholars with any expertise in the area of intelligence and intelligence testing (defined very broadly) share a common view of the most important components of intelligence, and are convinced that it can be measured with some degree of accuracy." Almost all respondents picked out abstract reasoning, ability to solve problems and ability to acquire knowledge as the most important elements.[58]

IQ might not be all there is to intelligence, but it does seem to be a pretty good metric.

You seem to have little doubt that people will learn to speak German (language learning being one of the most intensive of the many brain activities) but at the same time won't be able to avoid falling into crime, and won't be able to find jobs.

I think this is very strange, and contradictory.

I don't think that it's contradictory at all. Everybody, even at the lowest levels of IQ, learns something as their first language. Now for 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants who grow up in Germany, that could be German, provided that there is a sufficient degree of assimilation. It's not guaranteed to happen, but I believe it could. Of course, learning German as a second language is difficult, and correct me if I'm wrong, but many immigrants do in fact struggle with that.

Thats why Germany is deporting 100k per year and they hoping to deport 150k the next year ramping it up to sort the wheat from the charff
No Citizenship for those that dont learn german and have a stable job, Germany can at anytime Dublin them back to Greece or Bulgaria

I heard that Germany plans to limit the number of asylum seekers to 200k/year, but I suppose that depends on the government coalition, which is still being formed. Although a quota of 200k doesn't necessarily mean that it will be reached. Then again I am no expert on German politics.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

It only took five (5) posts for this thread to devolve into a "brown people are provably dumb". Congrats, CFC. Also congrats Valessa on making another high quality thread with a refreshing topic.

 

[Hehehe]

It only took five (5) posts for this thread to devolve into a "brown people are provably dumb". Congrats, CFC. Also congrats Valessa on making another high quality thread with a refreshing topic.

You seem to be having a very negative emotional reaction to this discussion. I'd like to think that we can have a civilized discussion about this. After all, facts are the basis of any successful policy, are they not?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Not sure what gave you that idea.
On principle everyone has the right to be provided with the basic necessities of life to be able to live in dignity (so the constitutional court says - dignity is a big thing in the German constitution). What you get is not a lump sum but a calculated aggregate depending on all kind of things: the start is over 400€ pocket money, now add to that rent, heating, health insurance, I believe other bills and extra money for furniture or a fridge orororororor and in the end you got a total worth of maybe 800€, possibly more, possibly a bit less. That is over one thousand US dollars, going merely by the exchange rate. And this is like a basic right for everyone. Which can be infringed on if you refuse to cooperate with the authorities on things like looking like you are looking for a job and other stuff. But what that means is - unless you are such a negligent idiot that really someone should be legally in charge of you, you are set for life.

Absolutely no one needs to be homeless in Germany (though some even manage that)

I read the wiki it says you have to work for minimal of 12 months to qualify for welfare, afterwards if you cannot get a job you get $400EUR per month
It dose no mention any other social progeams apart from healthcare. Nothing about rent, heating, furniture ?

I read that rent is really cheap in Germany because of strict German controls and the Germans dont invest in properties they prefer to invest in bank savings due to high age required for pension,
I think most dont want to work after aged 55 but there is no pension unit 67 so they need savings to survive because of the minimal welfare is not really enough.

 

[Ryika]

Time will solve those multicultural problems caused by immigration. Be patient. One to two generations will usually do it.

That depends on the situation. We still have problem areas filled with the people who came after WW2, and they're in what? The third generation now? They do learn some basic German, but do really terribly at school, because in their area, they still speak their mother's tongue, which is not useful for German society (unless you actually work with refugees, or people in unemployment - we would love to have some people who can translate where I work right now, but to find people who are bilingual on a level that allows for good communication on both ends is hard).

But at the same time, yes, for the people who actually sought to become part of German society, that has worked very well in just a few Generations. Which again is why I think measures that allow for integration should be a high focus, and be both made available for immigrants/refugees, and also expected of them. Because even if THEY are fine with being dumped at the lower end of society, their children at the very least should have the choice to not live that way, and for their children to have any chance in German society, the parents do need to have the basic tools available to support their children. That is however not "multiculturalism" as used in the op, that's integration and assimilation.

 

[Mouthwash]

Was this thread previously locked, or was it just a dream?

(Honestly I do sometimes dream of the sites I spend time on.)

 

[Ryika]

Was this thread previously locked, or was it just a dream?

(Honestly I do sometimes dream of the sites I spend time on.)

Yes, the original thread was locked because it was low quality and aiming at creating an emotional response. This one is revised, goes into more detail in the OP and lacks the offensive humor (plus, it's an RD thread).

I have discussed this with a mod (Lemon Merchant), and after sending her the draft for the OP, she gave me the okay to create it.

 

[Cutlass]

Same song, different verse: "Multiculturalism is a problem because we won't permit those people to become our people because they haven't been our people for the past 100 generations, so we will never accept them as part of us. Therefor they should all be kicked out and forced to go back wherever they came from".

None of these "Multiculturalism is a problem because..." people have ever identified any problem other than the racism of the locals. So I just have no sympathy here. So go ahead and die out as a people, but at least your bloodlines will remain pure. Until they are extinct, that is.

The grand irony is that you cause the fulfillment of the prophecy you rail against: Racism by whites will cause the replacement of whites by not-whites.