OK, time to counter ignorance and BS.
Yeekim was right. I'm also less inclined to view
this as a 'joke' than I was.
I
plagiarized that from DDO.
Latino and black gangs simply emphasize that even in nations without racial characteristics at all, divisions on ethnic lines occur. Go to New York City and you'll find Jewish neighborhoods, Italian neighborhoods, Indian neighborhoods, Chinese neighborhoods, etc.
Also, you know how I just apologized to you for responding to you with mockery? I'd like to rescind that and offer my opinion that you thoroughly deserved it.
Mouthwash, Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Hasbara or ICIC?
No, and I don't know what the ICIC is.
If you gain your land by evicting the currents occupants, of course you should expect security issues.
That's sort of why we evicted them in the first place.
I wonder why Hasbara didn't hire me yet. I seem to be the only relatively Pro-Israel guy who doesnt use "if you don't agree with me, you're an anti-semite!" trope but neither doesn't post any of the stuff Mouthwash just posted.
I have literally never heard anyone seriously call another person an anti-Semite for criticizing Israel in an appropriate fashion (which pretty much just means not raving about how their racism can be found in the Talmud).
Anecdotal evidence is exactly what you're using here by saying that intermarriage is almost nonexistent in Brooklyn. Brooklyn is the 4th most populous city in the US (after Chicago and LA). Saying that 2,500,000 people from nearly every nation on the planet don't intermarry with people of Jewish descent is laughable. I can only assume that you were biasing your sampling of "Brooklyn" to the insular neighborhoods of Southside Williamsburg, Borough Park, some areas of Crown Heights... maybe a couple other corners I'm not familiar with.
The harder I try to clarify things, the more vigorously it flies over your head.
I wasn't literally referring to "Brooklyn" as an geographical area in which intermarriage was nonexistent. Brooklyn is the center of Orthodox Judaism in the US. I'm suggesting that the Jewish areas of Brooklyn, which function like a different country with their own rules, their own standards of conduct, their own Kosher businesses and their own way of life, are devoid of intermarriage because intermarriage is
one of the biggest taboos in Judaism. Have you ever met or spoken to a Jew? Do you know anything about Judaism? Stop screwing around, dude.
And that's precisely your problem. When 2 warring tribes needed to find a way to dial down hostilities they would use marriage as a tool. Reducing the arbitrary stigma of exogamy will only serve to pacify the region.
Go convince all the Jews and Muslims that. I'll be waiting.
My entire point was that there isn't any sharp distinction, in the real world, between civic and ethnic nationalism, as defined
here. You can't create a unified state based on shared values or political practices because Judaism and Islam are ways of life, not just religions. Both forbid intermarriage, especially in the Jewish case. Of course you can create a state where both of them get along, but there will always be political and social differences between the two. Sure, there are Jews in Fatah and there are Arab Muslims in the IDF. No one disputes that there won't be the odd case out. But I can't ever see an "Israeli nationality" emerging because what would it be based on? How would you make Jews and Arabs "one people?"
In fact, Zionism can be called, at least, partly, a type of civic nationalism because prior to 1948 there really was no universal sense of "Jewish identity." The Russian and Moroccan and Iranian Jews all came together out of a sense of ideals, not because of their shared Jewish bloodline. Any attempt to equivocate Israel with South Africa because of the supposed ethnic characteristic of the state is dishonest reductionist nonsense. Look at the example the link gave. Great Britain was formed out of Wales, Scotland and England because their beliefs and civic institutions were compatible. Israel was formed out of Jews, without a coherent ethnicity or identity, from all around the world for
largely the same reasons.
"My long gone ancestors lived in these lands two thousand here ago, now I have the right to return here in sufficient number to make this my land" is pretty much insane troll logic.
I agree, and I think it's pretty funny how the Muslims take it seriously and then try to construct
racially based arguments for why the Jews aren't the
real Jews.
This statement means precisely nothing. "Ancestral home" is not a claim to anything except history.
I completely agree. After sixty years the Palestinians don't exactly have a right to the civilization that was built where their ancestors lived.
Sorry. I don't see any mass deportations or ethnic cleansing mentioned in the
Wiki article during that period. Source?
It's worth noting, purely because you like appealing to authority so much, that Morris
defended the ethnic cleansing and called it a historical mistake to stop at the 1948 borders.
The strange thing is, in the 19th century European Jews were the only ones who consistently thought internationally. Edmund Wilson gives this as the reason for their ability to contribute so many minds toward the creation of socialism and communism, and explains that phenomenon by noting that everywhere in Europe Jews were not regarded as truly "of" any country, because of that ethnic nationalism at work. And in the interwar period, this phenomenon was taken to the extreme. It even managed to influence Soviet policy through the creation of korenizatsiya, and they were supposed to be all about rejecting those things. Nazism is ethnic nationalism taken to its most insane extreme. And yet after the Second World War, as the rest of the world was just getting over all this ethnic nationalism fever, is precisely when the Jews decide that giving ethnic nationalism a go is the best idea. They were light-years ahead of the rest of the Europe for so long, and now they've descended into the maddening barbarism of the ideology which nearly cost their race its existence. I don't understand it.
You sound less sane, informed, and educated with every post.
In general, pre-Zionist Jews calculated that as long as they cooperated as much as possible with the Gentiles they could survive, but that simply didn't work with the Nazis (in fact it only made them more vulnerable). The modern attitude towards the Holocaust is something very different from Jewish mentality in centuries past.
And there's the fact that over half of all Israelis are Sephardi, including me. It's sort of telling how you still can't register them as anything but the white, leftist, cultured people that American Jews are.
To conclude, Cheezy, I think your fictive notions of "ethnicity" and "exclusive sovereignty", particularly in the light of your idealized notion of internationalism (on whose account you're advocating for the transformation of society into some apolitical, cooperative mass) are some of the stupidest, most emotional-reactionary bits of BS I've ever heard. It seems to me like it's more about a sense of personal justice rather than about really getting Jews and Arabs to stop killing each other. You're like the people who decry racial profiling because it judges individuals based on phenotype, or support international law as a genuine tool for resolving conflict. I wouldn't be surprised if anti-war rhetoric pops up in this forum somewhere as a way of justifying the potential criminal classification of IDF members.
You have yet to make a coherent argument as to why there should be a non-Jewish Israeli nationality, how one could be achieved, or why it was wrong to evict people who ethnically identified with your enemy in the middle of a war of self-determination. Kindly make it more sophisticated "Jew and Arab = white and black." I don't need your half-informed stereotypes to solve the most intractable conflict of the modern world, and neither do the Palestinians.
As far as I see, the expulsion of the Palestinians was actually moderate and
conservative compared to what we could (and probably should) have done to give ourselves a country. When I drive by Netanya, I can see the beach about thirty feet to the left, and when I look in the other direction, I can see the mountains of the West Bank, owned by Jordan for nineteen years, a few miles away.
