The real apartheid state.

[Tahuti]

Don't forget they stopped doing so when our puppet dictator was removed from office.

Actually, Egypt's blockade ended in a half-arsed way at best, and many aspects of the Egyptian blockade were actually resumed after Morsy's downfall. Given that Hamas is perceived to be the Muslim Brotherhood's puppets, I doubt the current Egyptian government somehow likes Hamas.

 

[Masada]

In related note Gaza is nowadays de facto independent (not ruled by Israel) and PA could have gotten control over about 90% of West Bank http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit - but for some reason its leaders found it's not enough and soon after started an uprising because Israeli politician visited holiest site of Judaism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada

That's overly simplified. The sticking point for the Palestinians were that it was being asked to trade 9% of the West Bank for 1% of Israel, with the Israelis to retain control over the Al Asqa Mosque and parts of East Jerusalem. Sharon's visit to the Al Asqa Mosque caused problems because it showed that the Israelis were not interested in further negotiations on one of the Palestinians core issues. It's also important to realize that the Palestinians made huge concessions: the largest settlements would remain, the West and East banks would not have a contiguous link, the Palestinians agreed to be demilitarization, to an Israeli right to intervene in the advent of 'problems', to an Israeli controlled road to Jerusalem, and the right of return would be circumscribed. It's also important to note that negotiations continued even after the Summit ended.

Right, but I was thinking more in lines with the first sentence of the wiki for black nationalism: "Black nationalism (BN) advocates a racial definition (or redefinition) of national identity." Not that it's an Israel for blacks, but that in order to be a citizen of Liberia, you need to be black, which is basically a racial definition of Liberian citizenship. But either way, I was simply using the word to describe this:

That's true. But calling it Black Nationalism implies that all blacks can become Liberians when that's not the case. Blackness being just one component of Liberian identity.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That's overly simplified. The sticking point for the Palestinians were that it was being asked to trade 9% of the West Bank for 1% of Israel, with the Israelis to retain control over the Al Asqa Mosque and parts of East Jerusalem.

Even more to the point: Israel would have retained control over all the water supply. In a desert country, that's a no-go, and Barak knew it.

 

[Masada]

And the roads, and a right to intervene. Yeah, it wasn't a great deal. Really, I can't see any other state being asked to agree to a Treaty with quite the same terms. Not an independent state at any rate.

I literally can't conceive how an Australian Government would be allowed to sign a treaty giving away 9% of the country. I expect I'd be rioting and attacking the occupiers myself.

 

[timtofly]

Yeah, um...anyone voicing social darwinism is gonna have a tough time with this one.

Are you saying that Israel was not the favored state, or that Germany should have been? It may not fit perfectly but that is the direction the human thought processes proceeded after things "mutated" in the way they did.


I am not saying that the atrocities carried out by both states deserve any excuses. It was what humans decided at the time and probably not really considering that one state would be any better, or worse off than the other.

 

[mrdab]

And the roads, and a right to intervene. Yeah, it wasn't a great deal. Really, I can't see any other state being asked to agree to a Treaty with quite the same terms. Not an independent state at any rate.

How about Serbia losing Kosovo, Germany losing territories after WW2 or any other country having to give territorial concessions after losing a war?

There is invariably some excuse that the Palestinians are solely to blame.
And I'm sure those who live in Gaza will be extrememly pleased to know they are now free to go wherever they wish, while importing and exporting anything of their choosing, being so "independent" of Israel and all...

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact, that plurality of them voted in last elections for Hamas and systematic firing of rockets from Gaza Strip towards Israel that happened soon afterwards (btw I wonder why almost no rockets are launched from West Bank) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_elections_of_2006#Results (these elections are by now overdue btw)

And yes, I believe that everybody is responsible for his/her own actions. While the current situation of Palestinians and Israelis is result of many factors (many of which are outside their own influence), I would say that their own behaviour (as well as their ancestors, societies and political leaders) is among leading causes of their own situation.

And that's why I don't believe that Middle Eastern conflict will be resolved anytime soon - neither party seems willing to compromise and neither has power and will to utterly defeat the other party.

 

[useless]

Don't forget that Egypt has blockaded the Gazans also.

@uesless, I have never seen you once complain about the treatment of Jews in Arabic lands, after they were ethnically cleansed from those lands.
The difference is that the Jews have always been in the lands before the Arabs come in. There has been a continued presence in the land, so they always has a link to the land.

Ethnic cleansing is always wrong regardless of the group committing it. The difference between me and you is that you seem to think it isn't when it's Jews doing it to other groups.

Also, you still haven't told us whether or not you will abide by your own logic and vacate the land you live on, to give to the aboriginal people that originally lived in Australia before white people "colonised" it.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Yeah, um...anyone voicing social darwinism is gonna have a tough time with this one.

In American public schools social Darwinism is normally introduced as enabling eugenics and the Holocaust. Of course, Randtarian thought is social Darwinism by any other name, so it's not like people particularly care about the origins or history of their ideals.

 

[Borachio]

The strange thing is, in the 19th century European Jews were the only ones who consistently thought internationally. Edmund Wilson gives this as the reason for their ability to contribute so many minds toward the creation of socialism and communism, and explains that phenomenon by noting that everywhere in Europe Jews were not regarded as truly "of" any country, because of that ethnic nationalism at work. And in the interwar period, this phenomenon was taken to the extreme. It even managed to influence Soviet policy through the creation of korenizatsiya, and they were supposed to be all about rejecting those things. Nazism is ethnic nationalism taken to its most insane extreme. And yet after the Second World War, as the rest of the world was just getting over all this ethnic nationalism fever, is precisely when the Jews decide that giving ethnic nationalism a go is the best idea. They were light-years ahead of the rest of the Europe for so long, and now they've descended into the maddening barbarism of the ideology which nearly cost their race its existence. I don't understand it.

You don't understand that a people who suffered a catastrophe where 25% (?) of their global population was destroyed might have a fierce yearning for their own homeland?

According to Nazi ideology it was precisely because the Jews had no homeland that they owed no allegiance to any state. And the Nazis weren't uniquely anti-Semitic either. So what would you have the Jews do? People complain when they don't have a homeland and now complain when they do.

(I realize that this isn't what you'd say Mr Whizz. I'm just expressing a point of view.)

There was also the "complicity" of the European Jews, through Jewish Councils, in their own destruction to consider*. Is it surprising that they are keen on defending their piece of the globe now; against all comers and all non-Jewish residents?

*Or is this a myth?

Still, I'm just trying to think myself into the mindset of the average Israeli, here. Probably unsuccessfully.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Actually, Egypt's blockade ended in a half-arsed way at best, and many aspects of the Egyptian blockade were actually resumed after Morsy's downfall. Given that Hamas is perceived to be the Muslim Brotherhood's puppets, I doubt the current Egyptian government somehow likes Hamas.

The only people who apparently "perceive" Hamas to be "Muslim Brotherhood puppets" are the usual far-right authoritarian suspects.

And it speaks volumes that the latest military-backed "government" of Egypt wants to bring back the bad old days, including the persecution of the Muslim Brotherhood. Of course you seem to support these efforts, being so different than the usual pro-Israeli contingent.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact, that plurality of them voted in last elections for Hamas and systematic firing of rockets from Gaza Strip towards Israel that happened soon afterwards (btw I wonder why almost no rockets are launched from West Bank) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_elections_of_2006#Results (these elections are by now overdue btw)

Indeed. Most people do know all about the pathetically small "rockets" which are typically deliberately launched so they fall into unoccupied fields so nobody is in any danger of even being hurt, as well as how the Palestinians finally voted Hamas into power in Gaza in sheer frustration.

And yes, I believe that everybody is responsible for his/her own actions. While the current situation of Palestinians and Israelis is result of many factors (many of which are outside their own influence), I would say that their own behaviour (as well as their ancestors, societies and political leaders) is among leading causes of their own situation.

Ironically, that statement pertains just as much to the Israelis as it does to the Palestinians.

And that's why I don't believe that Middle Eastern conflict will be resolved anytime soon - neither party seems willing to compromise and neither has power and will to utterly defeat the other party.

At least you got that right. But what is largely keeping the Netenyahu regime from committing even worse atrocities than it already has isn't the power to do so. It is world opinion. Word eventually does get out despite the Israeli government doing all they can to censor the media which is unfavorable to their agenda.

 

[Tahuti]

You don't understand that a people who suffered a catastrophe where 25% (?) of their global population was destroyed might have a fierce yearning for their own homeland?

According to Nazi ideology it was precisely because the Jews had no homeland that they owed no allegiance to any state. And the Nazis weren't uniquely anti-Semitic either. So what would you have the Jews do? People complain when they don't have a homeland and now complain when they do.

(I realize that this isn't what you'd say Mr Whizz. I'm just expressing a point of view.)

There was also the "complicity" of the European Jews, through Jewish Councils, in their own destruction to consider*. Is it surprising that they are keen on defending their piece of the globe now; against all comers and all non-Jewish residents?

*Or is this a myth?

Still, I'm just trying to think myself into the mindset of the average Israeli, here. Probably unsuccessfully.

Actually, you do it quite alright. But I said earlier, Israel was by far the most obvious choice, history aside. You'd be crazy if you'd consider Stalin's alternative as, well, an alternative. Besides, it is to argue Israel shouldn't given the current political environment: Few states aside from some Islamic countries have official anti-semitic laws.

Do note that in Israeli declaration of independence, the Israeli framers made clear it was to respect all races and ethnicities. The sentiment Cheezy the Wiz tried to portray is only explanatory of Radical Zionists of the likes that shoot Israeli Prime Ministers. And Israel banned Lehi - responsible for many of expulsions of Arabs and the murder of Count Bernadotte - as well. Pretty much all organisation that advocate and condone what Israel is usually accused of are banned long ago.

The only people who apparently "perceive" Hamas to be "Muslim Brotherhood puppets" are the usual far-right authoritarian suspects.

And it speaks volumes that the latest military-backed "government" of Egypt wants to bring back the bad old days, including the persecution of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Considering your love of news articles, I have one for you that is really pertinent to the topic:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25434529

Now, please do not view the Muslim Brotherhood as a cuddly organisation, but it is indeed true that Morsy is likely to face a kangeroo court.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Considering your love of news articles, I have one for you that is really pertinent to the topic:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25434529

Now, please do not view the Muslim Brotherhood as a cuddly organisation, but it is indeed true that Morsy is likely to face a kangeroo court.

Considering your apparent hatred of news articles by merely making such an absurd comment, I'm not surprised at all that you think this doesn't completely support what I just stated.

 

[AdamCrock]

What is apartheid ?

 

[Borachio]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid

To my mind, it's just racial segregation, legally enforced.

Racial segregation in South Africa began in colonial times under Dutch rule.[6] Apartheid as an official policy was introduced following the general election of 1948. Legislation classified inhabitants into four racial groups, "black", "white", "coloured", and "Indian", with Indian and coloured divided into several sub-classifications,[7] and residential areas were segregated, sometimes by forced removals.

 

[Tahuti]

Considering your apparent hatred of news articles by merely making such an absurd comment, I'm not surprised at all that you think this doesn't completely support what I just stated.

No, I am saying that there broad antipathy in Egypt towards Hamas and other Islamic movements. In fact, while the current military government is far from democratic, it started with protests against the Morsy government.

The problem with you as that everything and everyone that is Anti-American and/or Anti-Israeli is automatically good. And you imply that everyone who disagrees with you is one of "the usual far-right authoritarian suspects". This is name-calling without any substance. You seldom give complete arguments and the arguments you do give are non-sequitur. Because your premise is already flawed from the start and you fail to examine whether there might be more to it than just the Black-and-White views you keep shouting all along. Believe it or not, I try to think Anti-Western and Pro-Palestinian all the time and maybe you should try the inverse as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid

To my mind, it's just racial segregation, legally enforced.

It also implies purposeful ethno-racial domination, legally enforced.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The problem with you as that everything and everyone that is Anti-American and/or Anti-Israeli is automatically good.

"The problem with you" is that you continue to make these absurd hyperbolic statements about me and my views, instead of even trying to discuss the topic.

There isn't anything "American" about the current military regime in Egypt which overthrew the sovereign democratically-elected government, nor is their ludicrous attempts to characterize Morsi as some sort of "terrorist" with no supporting facts.

 

[Tahuti]

"The problem with you" is that you continue to make these absurd hyperbolic statements about me and my views which are clearly completely divorced from reality, instead of even trying to discuss the topic.

You now fervently assert the contrary, even though I have pretty much all your posts in this thread to back my claim up. The only thing American you defended so far as I can remember is water fluoridation. Which is something I do not mind. But I find it pretty telling how you seem to treat every organisation that is hostile to the USA and Israel as cuddly, but when someone (me?) points out the downsides of such groups, you immediately get into the defensive and make silly points about "the usual right-wing authoritarian suspects".

Damn, I must be Louis XVI himself!

 

[Formaldehyde]

You realize you are just parroting the same hyperbolic personal attacks many far-right authoritarians use instead of discussing such matters? What were you just claiming about your own views being so different than theirs?

Is it really your opinion that Morsi is a "terrorist"? What actual proof do you have other than the statements of a truly far-right authoritarian military government which violently took power in a coup of a democratically-elected government? A military which has tortured and murdered countless thousands of innocent victims themselves without facing the consequences of those acts?

 

[Borachio]

Talk about conforming to stereotype.

 

[classical_hero]

"The problem with you" is that you continue to make these absurd hyperbolic statements about me and my views, instead of even trying to discuss the topic.

There isn't anything "American" about the current military regime in Egypt which overthrew the sovereign democratically-elected government, nor is their ludicrous attempts to characterize Morsi as some sort of "terrorist" with no supporting facts.

So it doesn't matter that he was turning into a dictator. The very reason why the military took over. But that doesn't matter.