The Very-Many-Questions-Not-Worth-Their-Own-Thread Thread XLI

[warpus]

I bet the more of this sort of thing I write about, the more I will be used to it. This was the first time ever I had to go back and change pronouns to something else (because I messed up) and also the first time thinking "huh, this sounds ambiguous, I need to rewrite it slightly" after I did that, so it kind of stuck out to me. Maybe if I had gotten the pronouns right the first time, I would have written the sentences differently to begin with, avoiding these issues? That seems likely too, but I'm not really sure. I sometimes catch myself making mistakes in English because I've been thinking in Polish, so my first go-to was looking at this from a linguistic pov.

Since I'm so new to all of this in terms of practical usage, I also wondered if i was missing any sort of standards that those more familiar turn to, while I am more likely to word things differently for various reasons. For ex. I find the English lack of a plural "you" annoying, but it isn't really a problem. You just adapt. "Hey, you!", he said to the group of centaurs standing in front of him VS "Hey, you!", he pointed to Steve, singling him out of the group of elderly men in the sauna. And yeah, you have the "Y'all", but that is never used in the form of English we speak where I live. In Polish you don't need to be so specific because we have very distinct words for the singular you and the plural you. There are also other ways to imply context, of course. In the end this also interests me as someone who wants to one day write interesting stories people want to buy and read. So I'm glad Star Trek made me think about all this beyond the cursory: "Yeah, pronouns, that sounds straightforward enough". And it is, but then you come across something like this and it makes you wonder what else you might be missing and if there might be a better way.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The ambiguity of English adds to its richness as much as it creates confusion. For precision one has to, perhaps, work a bit harder. It allows: you, you, y'all and youse and probably more.

 

[warpus]

English is indeed very flexible but also sort of inflexible at the same time. One of the reasons, I thought, that English was able to fuse with other languages (Patois, etc.) was that it's relatively flexible.. But at the same time some things seem pretty limiting.

In contrast, Polish is a very regular and structured language, but parts of it are more flexible than English, it seems. We have like 20 different ways of saying "kitten", because diminutive versions in Polish can be assembled in so many different ways, you can even stack them or invent your own. You can modify a verb or a noun and change the prefix or suffix and include information about the speaker, who is spoken to, the tense, gender, and other details (depending on circumstances). In English you can't do most of that and you have to be more explicit and include the proper words for things in the sentence. For example, In Polish the word "Go" can be said in various ways to include who is going, when they are going, if it's singular or plural, the gender of who is going, etc. Whereas in English you have to spell most of it out : "Are we going?". In Polish this can be accomplished in just one word that contains all the same information and often more (due to context, which English can do as well in this case)

So there's that, but the regular nature of Polish means that you can learn the alphabet - and in theory be able to figure out how to read 99.999% of written Polish, assuming you can properly piece the various sounds together. So if you look at a word, you can go "T is prounced like this, a is pronoucned like this, k is pronounced like this - so Tak is pronounced like that". English doesn't work like this at all and you basically have to figure it out by looking it up or asking somebody how the hell to pronounce "Colonel" or "Sean"

I think this must lead to different ways of thinking and looking at the world. And indeed, when I look at the word "through English eyes" it feels different than when I look at it "through Polish eyes". For instance, I've been able to get some sort of consensus with other Polish speakers that the Polish view of the world is "funnier" than English. I have no idea why, but some sentences just seem funnier inherently somehow, whereas if you translate it to English it's just a plain ole boring sentence that's not funny at all.

Are there any good books out there that discuss linguistics from this pov? These dynamics are very interesting to me, but I wonder what sort of academic research has been done on it that a layman would understand? All I've figured out so far that if Polish is your first language you see the world slightly differently VS if English is your first language. But how? What are the implications? etc.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I have no idea why, but some sentences just seem funnier inherently somehow, whereas if you translate it to English it's just a plain ole boring sentence that's not funny at all.

Yeah, but you shouldn't compare a funny sentence in Polish to its translation in English. You should compare a funny Polish sentence to a funny English sentence.

Then you should gather a group of people who speak both languages and poll them on which sentence is funnier.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.

I'll dig around and see if I can find a book like the one you describe.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

This is not a unique issue to they/them and happens just as much with two women or two men in the same scene. Which "he/him" or "she/her" is referring to who?

Whom.

Fortunately I don't have this issue, since I stopped watching DiscoTrek in the first season. I know who Stamets is, but have no idea about the others.

 

[The_J]

I bet the more of this sort of thing I write about, the more I will be used to it. This was the first time ever I had to go back and change pronouns to something else (because I messed up) and also the first time thinking "huh, this sounds ambiguous, I need to rewrite it slightly" after I did that, so it kind of stuck out to me. Maybe if I had gotten the pronouns right the first time, I would have written the sentences differently to begin with, avoiding these issues? That seems likely too, but I'm not really sure. I sometimes catch myself making mistakes in English because I've been thinking in Polish, so my first go-to was looking at this from a linguistic pov.

I think this language confusion is very common. Many people transport structures and concepts of their native language into the next one, until they at some point figure that it doesn't work like that.
But yeah, I think you here concluded right, and it's not the case.
It's simply a complicated situation.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

We have like 20 different ways of saying "kitten", because diminutive versions in Polish can be assembled in so many different ways, you can even stack them or invent your own.

Depending on whether you want to use actual lolspeak spellings or a more straightforward spelling, the term for a litter of kittens is either "itteh-bitteh-kitteh-committeh" or "itty-bitty-kitty-committee."

One of my Cheezburger home page lols was a a newborn kitten maybe 3 days old, eyes and ears not yet open, asking, "I can has committeh?" (translation: "Where are my brothers and sisters? I want to be with the other kittens.")

 

[warpus]

I'll dig around and see if I can find a book like the one you describe.

Thanks!! That would be a fascinating read for me, especially if written by somebody who is able to take potentially complex idea and present them in a way that's easy for the layman to understand.. such as let's say, the way Carl Sagan used to do or Brian Greene.

The funny thing I can't really explain and am having a tough time thinking of an example. I barely speak Polish to anyone these days, but it used to come up all the time when I was younger and hanging out with Polish friends or family members. It'd be a mundane sentence that isn't inherently funny in any way, but somehow it just was. One that I do remember, but that makes no sense now, is "The fly is on the wall". It doesn't even seem funny to me now, in English or Polish, but it was something like that. See, it doesn't make sense lol. I'll have to see if it ever happens again and remember the exact quote to post here.

Depending on whether you want to use actual lolspeak spellings or a more straightforward spelling, the term for a litter of kittens is either "itteh-bitteh-kitteh-committeh" or "itty-bitty-kitty-committee."

It's valid straightforward spelling you'd find in a dictionary. Here's a list of the more common ways of saying kitten: kotek, koteczek, kociątko, kociak, kociaczek, kocio, kicia, kiciunia, kotuś, kotunio. You can basically use the base word (kot) and mold it like clay and make it sound cute by changing it in various ways, including new ways you've made up pretty much (although it's probably already been done). The same thing can be done with the opposite of a diminuitive, whatever that is. So like, it's great for both insults AND talking to babies (or cats). You can do it with names too, especially when talking cute to a spouse or lover (or whatever)

 

[Takhisis]

I find the English lack of a plural "you" annoying

Actually ‘you’ is the plural, a cognate of Polish ‘wy’. Think of everyone being very polite all the time.

the opposite of a diminuitive, whatever that is

An augmentative.

 

[Sarin]

English used to have a singular "thou", which fell out of favour. Try reading something written in English before 18th century.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

English used to have a singular "thou", which fell out of favour. Try reading something written in English before 18th century.

I've read a fair bit of Shakespeare and one of my college English instructors assigned The Canterbury Tales. Both can be frustrating, but Shakespeare, being more recent and more widely taught, is easier.

There's an episode of the old documentary series The Story of English in which British actress Mary Tamm is being coached in the proper dialect when she's hired to make audio recordings of some of the Tales. The clip in the documentary shows her learning how to correctly pronounce the words in a sentence from "The Nun's Priest's Tale."

Once you get into the rhythm and shift the vowels around properly, it's actually rather lilting and lyrical, at least to me.

 

[Quintillus]

For ex. I find the English lack of a plural "you" annoying, but it isn't really a problem. You just adapt. "Hey, you!", he said to the group of centaurs standing in front of him VS "Hey, you!", he pointed to Steve, singling him out of the group of elderly men in the sauna. And yeah, you have the "Y'all", but that is never used in the form of English we speak where I live. In Polish you don't need to be so specific because we have very distinct words for the singular you and the plural you.

I just use y'all even though it isn't really used this far north. No one ever looks at me weird, although maybe we get enough southern visitors for that to be the case, or they just assume I moved here from the south, which is kind-of-sort-of-but-not-really true. Point being, I agree that it's sort of odd that northern English doesn't have a plural form of "you". "Y'all" might not work as well in Canada as in the northern U.S., though.

OTOH, I'm not sure people would understand me if I used yinz. That's a lot more Pittsburgh-specific, and I don't think I've ever heard it IRL, even though Pittsburgh is theoretically closer than the South (IRL, some areas that use southern lingo are probably closer than Pittsburgh).

I also found this somewhat interesting during the year I studied Spanish. Castillian Spanish uses vosotros, but Latin American Spanish, like non-Southern English, only uses one for of "you", ustedes. I don't know enough about Spanish to tell you why, but did find it interesting that English is not alone in having only one "you" in must - but not all - dialects.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

"Y'all" might not work as well in Canada as in the northern U.S., though.

Anyone using "y'all" in this region is assumed to be American. If we say "you all", we don't slur the words together into a contraction.

 

[warpus]

Actually ‘you’ is the plural, a cognate of Polish ‘wy’. Think of everyone being very polite all the time.

"Hey you! Go f yourself"

"Please kind sir, I can't handle that much politeness all at once" tips tophat

I realized that in Polish the you/wy can also be confused with the royal you. Not so uncommon for it to be used in a sarcastic way. Depends on how you say it and the context. So in theory there could be some confusion there too, but not that much, it's usually clear by the tone and inflection and situation, etc.

I just use y'all even though it isn't really used this far north. No one ever looks at me weird, although maybe we get enough southern visitors for that to be the case, or they just assume I moved here from the south, which is kind-of-sort-of-but-not-really true. Point being, I agree that it's sort of odd that northern English doesn't have a plural form of "you". "Y'all" might not work as well in Canada as in the northern U.S., though.

OTOH, I'm not sure people would understand me if I used yinz. That's a lot more Pittsburgh-specific, and I don't think I've ever heard it IRL, even though Pittsburgh is theoretically closer than the South (IRL, some areas that use southern lingo are probably closer than Pittsburgh).

I also found this somewhat interesting during the year I studied Spanish. Castillian Spanish uses vosotros, but Latin American Spanish, like non-Southern English, only uses one for of "you", ustedes. I don't know enough about Spanish to tell you why, but did find it interesting that English is not alone in having only one "you" in must - but not all - dialects.

We ran into some Spanish curiosities like that in Chile. I speak zero Spanish but my friend is fluent, although she learned Castillan Spanish in school. So I remember we were looking at some dried fruit to buy for a hike and she was trying to ask for strawberries (IIRC) and they had a different name there. I can't remember if we ran into the "you" issue too or if that's just something I read about, but that was on my radar too.

Here if I used "Y'all" I think people would assume I'm being sarcastic. i.e. trying to talk different to get some sort of reaction

 

[Gori the Grey]

The funny thing I can't really explain and am having a tough time thinking of an example. I barely speak Polish to anyone these days, but it used to come up all the time when I was younger and hanging out with Polish friends or family members. It'd be a mundane sentence that isn't inherently funny in any way, but somehow it just was. One that I do remember, but that makes no sense now, is "The fly is on the wall". It doesn't even seem funny to me now, in English or Polish, but it was something like that. See, it doesn't make sense lol. I'll have to see if it ever happens again and remember the exact quote to post here.

The basic fact that you report--that the world feels different to you as you experience it under one of your languages than it does under the other--is reported by pretty much every bilingual person. A scholarly treatment of this, if I can track it down, is going to have to assume full bilingualism in its readership, and the exact two languages that the author has (so I think it will be tough to find for English and Polish, maybe English and Spanish or English and French).

I agree that "The fly is on the wall" is not a terribly funny sentence in English.

 

[warpus]

The basic fact that you report--that the world feels different to you as you experience it under one of your languages than it does under the other--is reported by pretty much every bilingual person. A scholarly treatment of this, if I can track it down, is going to have to assume full bilingualism in its readership, and the exact two languages that the author has (so I think it will be tough to find for English and Polish, maybe English and Spanish or English and French).

I agree that "The fly is on the wall" is not a terribly funny sentence in English.

And admittedly it can be funny in the right context in any language (I bet monty python could write a skit around that quote), but the way I remember "stuff like this", it's not necessarily the context that made it funny but rather the simple mundanity of it and the way it was said. And yet, after typing that out, I feel like something is missing from the explanation nevertheless.

I'd love to find some good reads on this not based on any particular language necessarily, but rather as a field of academic study that'd apply to any language (in theory). But if there is something for someone who knows Polish, German, and English specifically, then that would be interesting too. Most people who speak multiple languages who I've talked to this about sort of basically agree, but can't explain it beyond "Yeah, it just feels different and stuff". Would be nice to narrow that down to something more concrete and specific.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

We ran into some Spanish curiosities like that in Chile. I speak zero Spanish but my friend is fluent, although she learned Castillan Spanish in school. So I remember we were looking at some dried fruit to buy for a hike and she was trying to ask for strawberries (IIRC) and they had a different name there.

Dried strawberries?

 

[Takhisis]

I also found this somewhat interesting during the year I studied Spanish. Castillian Spanish uses vosotros, but Latin American Spanish, like non-Southern English, only uses one for of "you", ustedes. I don't know enough about Spanish to tell you why, but did find it interesting that English is not alone in having only one "you" in must - but not all - dialects.

Hmmmm, it seems to me that you were getting something wrong, because ‘vosotros’ and ‘ustedes’ (both actually descended from Latin vos, also a cognate of Slavic vy and English you, btw) are nearly interchangeable second-person plural-only pronouns. For first-person singulars you get another set of pronouns entirely.

In case somebody wants to find out more about why plurals can be used as respectful forms of the singular, welcome to the world of the T-V distinction.

 

[warpus]

Dried strawberries?

It was a store selling dried fruit and nuts and stuff, for hiking purposes. I could be misremembering, but I thought it was strawberries.

I'll ask her next time we chat but I bet she won't remember either

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It was a store selling dried fruit and nuts and stuff, for hiking purposes. I could be misremembering, but I thought it was strawberries.

I'll ask her next time we chat but I bet she won't remember either

I've had dried mango, bananas, pineapple, apple, and a couple of other kinds of fruit. But never strawberries. It's kind of a revolting idea, actually.