Trump Steps in it Again

[rah]

From this mornings paper;

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...on-trump-norway-slur-0116-20180112-story.html

President Donald Trump decried Thursday that the U.S. was not taking in enough immigrants from Norway, and accepting too many arrivals from Haiti, El Salvador and Africa, combined with some flowery language I would prefer not to reproduce. There has been a vociferous emotional reaction, but I’d like to take a more sober tack and consider what the data actually tell us, focusing on Africa and Norway.

One of the most striking facts, unbeknownst even to many immigration advocates, is the superior education of Africans coming to this country. Of adults 25 years or older born in Africa and living in the U.S., 41.7 percent have a bachelor’s degree or more, according to 2009 data. For contrast, only 28.1 percent of the native-born American population has a bachelor’s degree or more, and 26.8 percent of foreign-born adults as a whole have a college degree, both well below the African rate.

Now these stats are probably cherry picked a touch, (most got their degrees here) but they make the point that those from other more developed countries have good education opportunities at home so are not as desperate to leave as those in countries without as many opportunities.

But still it means those coming from Africa often have more drive to complete their education.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

More drive to complete their education and work their butts off so they can stay permanently. Immigration has overall been a huge windfall for the US.

 

[Synobun]

I think focusing on the education of those immigrating from Africa is a mistake. It muddies the water and redirects scorn to those who are "uneducated". Many from African nations can only emigrate because of academic scholarships and sponsorships. It stands to reason that a greater percentage of them would receive higher education since that is often the prerequisite for them even being in the west, or the only way they can get into the country is because of them receiving higher education back home.

But you can argue about this all day, and it won't matter. It is a distraction. An immigrant's level of education is irrelevant. America is not hurting for space for immigrants to the point that only accepting the "best and brightest" is a legitimate need as it is in smaller, more isolated nations like New Zealand.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But still it means those coming from Africa often have more drive to complete their education.

"Maybe, but they're still black." - Donald Trump

 

[rah]

I'd rather live next to an educated black man from Africa then a WHITE uneducated redneck from Alabama.


Hmm, I guess I could take color completely out of that without changing my attitude about the rest of it.

 

[Katie88]

Seriously,

Please read the wikipedia entry on the Haitian revolution then report your thoughts. I genuinely think your opinion would change. You have no idea how brutal France was and the chaos they triggered.

All sides were incredibly brutal in the Haitian Revolution (it's a bit simplistic to talk about two sides, since the participants changed and people defected, sometimes more than once). But that was over two centuries ago. For contrast, Paraguay suffered an even more brutal war half a century later, in which over 70% of the male population died, and the country was saddled with reparations which were only written off in, if memory serves, 1943. Yet today, Paraguay, though no paradise, is in far better shape than Haiti.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

All sides were incredibly brutal in the Haitian Revolution (it's a bit simplistic to talk about two sides, since the participants changed and people defected, sometimes more than once). But that was over two centuries ago. For contrast, Paraguay suffered an even more brutal war half a century later, in which over 70% of the male population died, and the country was saddled with reparations which were only written off in, if memory serves, 1943. Yet today, Paraguay, though no paradise, is in far better shape than Haiti.

That's nice and totally beside my point.

 

[Katie88]

What is your point, then? Because you seemed to be saying that Haiti's current states stems from the Haitian Revolution.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

What is your point, then? Because you seemed to be saying that Haiti's current states stems from the Haitian Revolution.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You pointed to an example that had nothing to do with it and somehow that proves I'm wrong.

And I implicitly acknowledged that the situation was complicated:

Then again I half expect you to come back, 'but look what the Haitians did to the white women on the island'.

 

[Katie88]

That's exactly what I'm saying. You pointed to an example that had nothing to do with it and somehow that proves I'm wrong.

You're being needlessly defensive here.

But why do you think that? If you argue that the devastating Haitian Revolution is the cause of Haiti's problems, then surely an example of a country that suffered an even more devastating conflict more recently but doesn't have the kind of problems should at least suggest that more recent events matter more?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

To be defensive I'd have to really care about this conversation at some level. I do only to the extent that it entertains me in this moment.

Comparing different situations in different countries in different times is not very useful or instructive or informing of the situation in Haiti. It a specious argument and I dismiss it as such. You have to prove otherwise but you don't, you just claim it is so completely unsubstantiated.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You're being needlessly defensive here.

Is there some fixed number of people you are going to say that to before you take responsibility for how you present yourself?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Is there some fixed number of people you are going to say that to before you take responsibility for how you present yourself?

Yeah and I think Casius or @Berzerker says something similar. It's annoying if nothing else.

Like, lol no I'm not defensive this is a debate thread in a forum; we're supposed to argue. But it gives the illusion that the other side is somehow emotionally attached and therefore cannot be trusted to make logical arguments so I see why they do it when they've got nothing else.

Edit: I'd put an @ for Casius but I don't know his handle.

Always name names. Back your #$$% up. I hate when people use 'some people' to talk about actual people right here. That's my philosophy anyways.

 

[Katie88]

To be defensive I'd have to really care about this conversation at some level. I do only to the extent that it entertains me in this moment.

Comparing different situations in different countries in different times is not very useful or instructive or informing of the situation in Haiti. It a specious argument and I dismiss it as such. You have to prove otherwise but you don't, you just claim it is so completely unsubstantiated.

You're the one asserting that Haiti's problems stem from the Haitian Revolution, without providing any proof or any reasoning, even after being asked. It's pure projection on your part.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I did make that claim unsubstantiated and you did not disprove it. Why should I go to the effort to construct an argument?

Are you going to actually read and consider it? Pinky swear?

 

[Katie88]

I'd actually be interested in hearing your argument. That's why I posted, to discuss the issue.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The argument is that Haiti, uniquely among nations in history, is the product of a successful slave revolt. Not only that, but the conditions for most Haitian slaves was actually incomparably brutal for just about any time and place. The revolt itself was also particularly violent, economically devastating and complex and ended in a situation that was distinctly not egalitarian. Immediately following that, the nation was placed under sanctions almost unrivaled in their totality and forced to pay restitution for something like a century.

In addition, the sanctioners were among the top tier of the global economic and military situation over that same century and were able to extract retribution in a manner that the Haitians could not avoid. All of these factors made Haiti a pariah in the rest of the world and made managing the country for the benefit of the people practically impossible. There is a line of faults and failures in Haiti right now that are traceable directly back to these initial conditions.

These initial conditions were so remarkably bad that trying to divorce the current circumstances from the past is silly. It also overlooks the very active and detrimental role certain countries have played in Haiti's history since the revolution ended. It's not like they got freedom and that was that. France and the US continued to screw with Haiti until damn near the present through various means and mechanisms and the rest of the world either turned a blind eye or played along.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Your assertion is bunk! I won't tell you why, but please waste your time constructing all possible arguments for all the reasons I might be saying that it is bunk.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Your assertion is bunk! I won't tell you why, but please waste your time constructing all possible arguments for all the reasons I might be saying that it is bunk.

Well it's not wasted time as long as there is still a wider audience that might care and give me those crucial likes. But yeah that was my sentiment there.

 

[Cassius Critzer]

Race doesn't actually exist in science. Just look up the rather famous Scientific American article. "Race" theory is pseudoscience that was cooked up by Western Civilization to denigrate based upon skin color and ethnic origin and was widely user by the progressives in America history to promote eugenics.

So when someone gets angry, they may bring up "race" which points to social theory and is discredited. At least say discrimination by ethnic origin if you're going to do that.

Haiti is a huge mess historically due to colonization and slavery, then rotten politics, then natural disaster, and superstition and diseases, etc. It is the poorest country in the Western hemisphere despite being loaned money and economic aid.

Harry Truman said the same word all the time and even joked that only at the urging of his wife switced to saying manure.

If you look in American politics you would find instances of the same direct honest talk by Democrats and Republicans. Great efforthas been made in America to aid foreign countries and refugees when the EU an formerly Europe stood by idlely.

On the other and I believe Norway has actually given a much larger amount in terms of humanitarian aid.

Meanwhile we know that based upon historic amnesty given more than 12 times, including Haitians, that it doesn't halt immigration. And then DACA in some polls was not popular to the American people, yet Trump flexed and there was a chance a bipartisan act, but then Democrat and media outrage over a secondhad source's hearsay killed the best chance of pasage.

How ridiculous. It's only been weeks since the media was spending air time on how many Diet Cokes the President drinks...I am serious.