Lurker:
One of the things you have to be careful about is funding their research.
One of the things you have to be careful about is funding their research.
TT01: Beating Demigod
- Thread starter ThinkTank
- Start date
Definitely agree with this. The Iros are pretty weak right now. I'd rather gimp them further by taking their work force rather than giving them gpt for a tech we're likely to have soon enough anyway.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I don't agree with your assessment DWetzel, in that I don't think Persopolis will be taken 'in a few turns' as things stand; it's an amusing irony that the only way that will happen, IMO, is if we trade for Feudalism now.
The gold is neither here nor there - we are running zero research - what are we accumulating it for? Just to remind us all - we have a 'conquest' vc. What better use of our gold is there than buying (for a paltry price) a tech that will immediately increase our offensive power by 33%?
I take vmxa's point about funding AI research, and I always hold his views with the greatest respect, but in all honesty, what are they going to learn that will hurt us?
Chivalry? They have neither Horses nor Iron; Invention? Sure Zerks and LB's pack a greater offensive punch, but they are slower to build, and their defensive frailties make them leader fodder for MedInf's; MT? Too far away - the 'fat lady' will have sung long ago on this continent.
And remember this - if the AI is not learning, the GLib is not a lot of use to us.
We are fighting with one hand tied behind our back, and I cannot think of one single reason why we should not deal for Feudalism immediately.
The gold is neither here nor there - we are running zero research - what are we accumulating it for? Just to remind us all - we have a 'conquest' vc. What better use of our gold is there than buying (for a paltry price) a tech that will immediately increase our offensive power by 33%?
I take vmxa's point about funding AI research, and I always hold his views with the greatest respect, but in all honesty, what are they going to learn that will hurt us?
Chivalry? They have neither Horses nor Iron; Invention? Sure Zerks and LB's pack a greater offensive punch, but they are slower to build, and their defensive frailties make them leader fodder for MedInf's; MT? Too far away - the 'fat lady' will have sung long ago on this continent.
And remember this - if the AI is not learning, the GLib is not a lot of use to us.
We are fighting with one hand tied behind our back, and I cannot think of one single reason why we should not deal for Feudalism immediately.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
22gpt is not that big an amount, so it wont help their research too much. It's a military tech we need. We (including me) have been underestimating what is needed to crush Persepolis and the Persians as a whole. So I'm fine with buying feudalism.
Sorry about not seeing the tech slider could go down.
I'll be away from the internet for a day or 3. Go kill 'em guys!
Edit: crosspost.
Sorry about not seeing the tech slider could go down.
I'll be away from the internet for a day or 3. Go kill 'em guys!
Edit: crosspost.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Sorry about not seeing the tech slider could go down.
It wasn't that obvious, to be honest; there is an underswell of distaste (on these forums) for using 'Clowns', so we tend to overlook them, but in this case, swapping a couple of Taxmen to Clowns allows us to drop the slider 10%, saving us a net 11gpt.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
To put the value of the deal in to perspective, to buy Feudalism from France would cost 73gpt. That shows how badly our enemies want Peace - they value it at nearly 50gpt.
The reason that I mention it is because it shows how badly they are hurting, and 22gpt extra is not going to change that a great deal. The AI is on the ropes, almost past the stage where they might hope to recover from our war, and Feudalism will give us an extra edge to help speed that process. And speed does matter if we don't want news of our perfidy to spread to the other continent, where alliances and ROP's will be so important to a smooth victory.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
i don´t want to object buying Hiawatha´s tech too strongly. 22gpt is just nothing we will really miss in our pockets. still i do not see it as a must-buy.
what it really is about is the question mace army vs sword army: personally i do not feel this matters much in der Persian war. it would be different if they had pikes. but they only have spears. we can kill them with anything we already have and a sharp word - using sharp (s)words as combined arms.
by building the sword army that is immediately available we can attack Persepolis again in 3 and by my guess take it in 5 turns. i would go for that, because our friend Xerxes has not many cities left to build troops with, plus most of them wasting against our city walls of Den... (can´t remember the city name right now). maces will only make a real difference in our next war against the Vikes. at the moment it is more a numbers game, so that more units will kill the Persians quicker.
then, i already uttered i like peace with the Iros now or soon. i do not see what more we could gain there right now, and our troops will still be needed in the south in 10 turns.
about connecting/disconnecting iron... personally i do not like to do that and would never do it in a single game. i esteem it an obvious exploit. if i have a resource connected, i try to keep it - that is how i see the intention of the game is. however, in a SG i will follow the majority´s choice, of course. but my vote goes for a clear no.
what it really is about is the question mace army vs sword army: personally i do not feel this matters much in der Persian war. it would be different if they had pikes. but they only have spears. we can kill them with anything we already have and a sharp word - using sharp (s)words as combined arms.
by building the sword army that is immediately available we can attack Persepolis again in 3 and by my guess take it in 5 turns. i would go for that, because our friend Xerxes has not many cities left to build troops with, plus most of them wasting against our city walls of Den... (can´t remember the city name right now). maces will only make a real difference in our next war against the Vikes. at the moment it is more a numbers game, so that more units will kill the Persians quicker. then, i already uttered i like peace with the Iros now or soon. i do not see what more we could gain there right now, and our troops will still be needed in the south in 10 turns.
about connecting/disconnecting iron... personally i do not like to do that and would never do it in a single game. i esteem it an obvious exploit. if i have a resource connected, i try to keep it - that is how i see the intention of the game is. however, in a SG i will follow the majority´s choice, of course. but my vote goes for a clear no.
My concern in giving them more gpt is that they may turn around and sue for peace with the Vikings, giving THEM tech and/or gpt for research. Vikes have horses and iron, are near Chivalry, and Berserks are slow but they will be no great fun on the counterattack.
I think we have sufficient forces in the south now to take Perseopolis, once reorganized. We have by my count 14 swords, 11 catapults, and one sword army either in Den Helder, Lauwerskoog, or outside Perseopolis. That WILL be enough to take it, I have to believe. Toss in the horses that just got built.
We can have those forces all gathered in Lauwerskoog in approximately 3-4 turns, after dispatching the current Persian annoyances.
I think that if we didn't use the army for swords, we shouldn't do that now. As food for thought, there is an average-plus chance that when we DO take it (and, really, should be 7 turns--4 to organize, 3 to assault), we will be able to turn that army into a KNIGHT army. Persia has Chivalry; someone else could easily get it (they have the pre-requisites and a trade partner), and we can have horses if we want them (again, I strongly recommend using the settler in the area to grab those sooner rather than later).
I think we have sufficient forces in the south now to take Perseopolis, once reorganized. We have by my count 14 swords, 11 catapults, and one sword army either in Den Helder, Lauwerskoog, or outside Perseopolis. That WILL be enough to take it, I have to believe. Toss in the horses that just got built.
We can have those forces all gathered in Lauwerskoog in approximately 3-4 turns, after dispatching the current Persian annoyances.
I think that if we didn't use the army for swords, we shouldn't do that now. As food for thought, there is an average-plus chance that when we DO take it (and, really, should be 7 turns--4 to organize, 3 to assault), we will be able to turn that army into a KNIGHT army. Persia has Chivalry; someone else could easily get it (they have the pre-requisites and a trade partner), and we can have horses if we want them (again, I strongly recommend using the settler in the area to grab those sooner rather than later).
Lurker:
My comment was not meant to say do not do the deal. It may or may not be a good move at this point in this game. I am not on top of the situation to make that call.
It was merely to point out that what can happen if you feed them gpt and they are able to get more techs and trade or bribe others to do some of their bidding.
What DWetzel mention is what I was alluding to, they could up their research and get another tech to peddle. They could make an alliance with the extra money.
None of this may come to pass, but it should be considered. My preference is to only buy techs that I think I must have and soon. Often the cost is not all that far away from being enough to steal it. I prefer to steal as they do not benefit from the money.
My comment was not meant to say do not do the deal. It may or may not be a good move at this point in this game. I am not on top of the situation to make that call.
It was merely to point out that what can happen if you feed them gpt and they are able to get more techs and trade or bribe others to do some of their bidding.
What DWetzel mention is what I was alluding to, they could up their research and get another tech to peddle. They could make an alliance with the extra money.
None of this may come to pass, but it should be considered. My preference is to only buy techs that I think I must have and soon. Often the cost is not all that far away from being enough to steal it. I prefer to steal as they do not benefit from the money.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I had some time, so I played to turn nine; I'm going to have to stop there, and I won't be able to post until later.
Quick update, though:
After three attempts, Persopolis has just fallen; I don't know if we will keep it even one turn, though. It was defended by ten Spears - I've never seen anything like it - and it is currently held by two red-lined Maces, with Persian Horses nearby.
We've just got our third MGL (Sorry, DWetzel, it's already an Army
) - and believe me, we need it, I've been living by the skin of my teeth.
Persopolis also completed Knights Templar just before we captured it.
Quick update, though:
After three attempts, Persopolis has just fallen; I don't know if we will keep it even one turn, though. It was defended by ten Spears - I've never seen anything like it - and it is currently held by two red-lined Maces, with Persian Horses nearby.
We've just got our third MGL (Sorry, DWetzel, it's already an Army
) - and believe me, we need it, I've been living by the skin of my teeth.Persopolis also completed Knights Templar just before we captured it.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
I believe it, in my other SG Berlin had at least 6 spears at Emperor. At Demigod, they can crank out a spear every turn when threatened. Sounds like a tough turn-set. Persepolis may flip repeatedly, especially on the turn when they build a crusader. It may take an army to keep re-taking it, so we might just gift it to a future enemy. I'd hate to burn it, but that's the other possibility if we can't hold it. The GW, KT, and the GLib are a potent set of wonders, I'd hate to lose them. However, I'd hate to let anyone else have them. Tough calls may be coming up, I hope I can handle it.
I had some time, so I played to turn nine; I'm going to have to stop there, and I won't be able to post until later.
Quick update, though:
After three attempts, Persopolis has just fallen; I don't know if we will keep it even one turn, though. It was defended by ten Spears - I've never seen anything like it - and it is currently held by two red-lined Maces, with Persian Horses nearby.
We've just got our third MGL (Sorry, DWetzel, it's already an Army
Persopolis also completed Knights Templar just before we captured it.
TEN spears?
Zowie.The good news is those maces are behind walls (or in a city, either way), so who knows, maybe we get lucky. I assume we have a few victorious units outside the city to re-retake it if necessary?
No argument on the other army at this point, I suppose.
I take it you did the deal for Feudalism? Not my choice, but c'est la vie.
Regardless, I would think that we should be in okay shape at this point, even if Perseopolis gets swapped a couple more times. Eventually it will be ours. Oh yes, it will be ours.
And with KT, too. That makes me very very happy. That will simplify things a great deal.
So, we have three armies? Where to go for the Pentagon? I'm assuming "not right away", but I'm trying to think long term. We also desperately need a Forbidden Palace.
I think burning it is out of the question. That's just too much wonder fun to get rid of. The GLib is actually the least of my worries at this point--but the Pyramids, Great Wall, and KT will ALL be of immense use to us--the latter two will be great for finishing off our island, and the Pyramids, well, just because.
If we have to have an army (most likely our sword army) baby sit it, I'm more than okay with that.
If we can, we should make note of the turn in which Knights Templar is built, and make every effort to have it on the 5th turn thereafter.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I agree on all points.
TEN spears?
The good news is those maces are behind walls (or in a city, either way), so who knows, maybe we get lucky. I assume we have a few victorious units outside the city to re-retake it if necessary?
10 Spears and two Archers. Re-taking would be easy enough, it will only get the one defender, and the Sword Army is relitively unscathed.
No argument on the other army at this point, I suppose.
I take it you did the deal for Feudalism? Not my choice, but c'est la vie.
I did, we are paying just 18gpt to Hiawatha with an alliance tied to Peace. Trust me, both were the correct call; Persopolis wouldn't have fallen to Swords - it barely fell to Maces and a Mace Army.
We are in fine shape; I've bolstered our defences with some SM builds, and a second Mace Army will make a big difference.
Yeah, those crusaders will remain useful even once we have this continent wrapped-up.
We can't spare the shields for either, so we'll need to wait for another MGL.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
just too nice of Xerxes to build KT for us just in time. 
you sure understand why of all wonders i have a special faible for this one...
i´m fine with the feud deal, although we could not find agreement on it. if it turned out to have been necessary, i just
to your superior playing and forecasting skills, buce. i´m sure i wouldn´t have gone for it, but i am very sure i would have NEVER expected that many defenders to sit in Persepolis, either.
next leader is for FP, imo.
it´s good we finally have Persepolis.
you sure understand why of all wonders i have a special faible for this one... i´m fine with the feud deal, although we could not find agreement on it. if it turned out to have been necessary, i just
to your superior playing and forecasting skills, buce. i´m sure i wouldn´t have gone for it, but i am very sure i would have NEVER expected that many defenders to sit in Persepolis, either.next leader is for FP, imo.
it´s good we finally have Persepolis.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Spoiler :
That was a tough set. I lost three Swords on the retreat from Persopolis - the Army was red-lined and couldn't protect them, and a further five MI's fell taking Persopolis.
Add to that we 'lost' six MI's by filling two Armies, and it left me severely short on counter-offensive ability, and that is largely still the case, though I just upgraded three Horse to Knights. I had a spate of building SM's because our border with the Vikings was just not protected at all - one city unprotected, one with a Warrior, and one with an Archer. That is largely remedied now, so you should be able to switch back to offensive units, Overseer.
Losing our Ivory city has meant raising the slider to 10%; I have since settled by Gems but they are not roaded (Overseer, I have three slaves heading that way - I may have left them on go-to orders).
I also have a Settler two turns away from another Ivory source, but it's on the Persian front-line so not guaranteed.
If I'm right we should have our first Crusader next turn, but I think our chances of avoiding the flip are low to zero - it's just a question of when.
Trouble is, until Overseer can finish pillaging the approach roads, it will need to be defended, so we risk losing units (an acceptable risk, IMO). I have a SM three moves away if it's required. All Cats are returning to Rax towns for upgrade to Trebs.
Just for interest, Persia will pay 692g & 34gpt for Peace.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
i´m fine with the feud deal, although we could not find agreement on it. if it turned out to have been necessary, i just
I don't think it's about superior playing skills, maybe I have more experience.
At no time did I disregard DWetzel's opinion, but only three team members gave one, and TT agreed with the Feudalism deal - not a concensus, granted, but a simple majority, nonetheless.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
There's something I'd like to toss out for discussion before we rush headlong into building Knights:
For the same number of shields required to build a Knight, we could build one MDI & one SM, giving combined-arms stats of 4/4/1.
For the same number of shields required to build a Knight, we could build one MDI & one SM, giving combined-arms stats of 4/4/1.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
a few knights will be nice. but i wouldn´t spend the extra shields for many and build more maces. the terrain does not really cry for 2-movers plus soon units will have to be transported by ship anyway.
the vote on feud was even, i think. i felt we shouldn´t make that deal, too, and said so. however, at 2-2 i still would have seen the final decision up to the player. plus, you found that an unusual situation (lots of defenders) has come up, and different situations require different measures. so i am all fine with your decision, as is said.
the vote on feud was even, i think. i felt we shouldn´t make that deal, too, and said so. however, at 2-2 i still would have seen the final decision up to the player. plus, you found that an unusual situation (lots of defenders) has come up, and different situations require different measures. so i am all fine with your decision, as is said.
Similar threads
