Ukraine Crisis master thread

[Terxpahseyton]

By identity I meant sentiments of many Crimean people about their region being part of Russia in cultural and historical sense. In other words, separatism. There is nothing new or surprising for Crimean people in these questions which they would never thought about and would need months or years to discuss.

That may all be true, it is still a special thing to make the actual concrete decision to leave the Ukraine. That should go without saying.
They already have autonomy, don't they? And perhaps the population may prefer autonomy within Ukraine.
You wanting to justify it by portraying the referendum as a mere formality is a dangerous and undemocratic road. Authorities don't guess what people will vote for and based on that take public discourse as something unimportant, even if they have some poll supporting it. They give the population the benefit of the doubt if they really care about democracy.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140314/188...1-Countries-to-Attend-Crimean-Referendum.html

Okay, I hope it holds true. We will see.

 

[Bamspeedy]

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140314/188...1-Countries-to-Attend-Crimean-Referendum.html

They've been invited to observe, whether they get to observe or are chased away by angry mobs we will have to wait and see.

Observers are overrated anyways. At most these observers go to 1% or less of the polling stations and if fraud will be committed they won't do it at a station with an observer.

 

[red_elk]

Different media blames different sides on starting the clashes, as usual.

Looks like a group of Maidan activists arrived in Donetsk, tried to organize a meeting and got trampled by pro-Russian crowd there. The killed one was a member of "Svoboda".

Link to video.

 

[Domen]

Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine (Dispatch Eight):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffYW3nlBwZk


Link to video.

In this video we can see the fascist thugs savagely blocking the kicks and punches with their faces. They must have received CIA training in this.

Interesting comment by human151 below this video, which says that in 1994 Ukraine gave away its nuclear arsenal to Russia in exchange for acknowledging the territorial integrity of Ukraine by Russia. Conclusion - never trust Russia, it does not keep its agreements and promises.

 

[red_elk]

In this video we can see the fascist thugs savagely blocking the kicks and punches with their faces.

Yes, this looks weird to me too. Maidan technologies seem not working there, people don't want to fight with the police, and fascist thugs are getting kicked out

 

[red_elk]

That may all be true, it is still a special thing to make the actual concrete decision to leave the Ukraine. That should go without saying.

You have a point here, agree.

They already have autonomy, don't they?

The rights of this autonomy are constantly changing. Some of current Kievan authorities made statements that the autonomy must be revoked completely.

And perhaps the population may prefer autonomy within Ukraine.

There is an option to vote for it.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Is there anybody in this dispute that has not been called a Nazi at some point?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

There is an option to vote for it.

Well that is great, but as said the population should have sufficient opportunity to consider its decision rather than being bombarded with anti-Ukrainian propaganda while rushing the referendum.
That in my mind is just Putin trying to use a momentum rather than Putin having the interests of the population at heart.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Is there anybody in this dispute that has not been called a Nazi at some point?

The Tatars.

Lets give Crimea back to them.

 

[red_elk]

That in my mind is just Putin trying to use a momentum rather than Putin having the interests of the population at heart.

Putin is securing political interests of Russia. Which, in general, corresponds to the sentiments of majority of people who live in the region. I didn't say this referendum will be perfectly democratic, what I'm saying is that making it as much democratic as possible - and therefore, legitimizing it in public opinion as much as possible - is in Putin's interests.

 

[Borachio]

Link to video.

Oh, that's just nasty.

I don't know who the small cowering group were. Were they Ukrainians or Russians? I suspect Russians. But it doesn't matter at all who it was. The crowd attacking them should all be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Bamspeedy]

USA refuses to recognize referendum as legit.
Well, guess we are good, as long as Nauru is still with us on the issue.

Would you mind explaining why those pacific states are like the only states that recongnized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Their support seems sort of random without context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru–Russia_relations

I'm guessing in this case it was the $50 million aid package and not any of the shady dealings that went on in the past.

 

[red_elk]

I don't know who the small cowering group were. Were they Ukrainians or Russians? I suspect Russians.

Both groups are Ukrainians, smaller one is Maidan activists attacked by a pro-Russian crowd.

 

[Light Cleric]

The same logic applies to Chechens, Tibetans, and Uighurs, etc, etc, etc. But of course, none of them can realistically use that card for various political reasons.

Russia is allowed to play this card because it is a strong country and nobody in the West cared enough to do much more than finger pointing.

Yes, I understand it from a practical point of view. I mean more from the standpoint of argument with Russia and its defenders. Some of the atrocities committed in multiple military actions in Chechnya, including two seperate wars, were insane, and brutal supression of Chechnya continues to this day. And yet no one who argues Russia's side even remotely acknowledges why that might make the self-determination claim seem utterly hollow.

It also doesn't help that Russia continues to behave in a very shady manner by talking up their ability to have troops in Crimea while simultaneously trying to obscure that their soldiers are indeed Russian.

 

[red_elk]

It also doesn't help that Russia continues to behave in a very shady manner by talking up their ability to have troops in Crimea while simultaneously trying to obscure that their soldiers are indeed Russian.

Everybody knows that Russian army consists of poor and dirty conscripts with an outdated equipment. Whereas these guys look like well-trained and equipped soldiers of a capable army. They can't be Russians

 

[Verbose]

Everybody knows that Russian army consists of poor and dirty conscripts with an outdated equipment. Whereas these guys look like well-trained and equipped soldiers of a capable army. They can't be Russians

Hardly universal. The Swedish armed forces have since 2010 been conducting exercises around the island of Gotland, around a hypothetical scenario of the fictitious great power "Jeltland", to the east, launching a combined sea and air assult on the port of Slite, using a couple of these:

The assumption is that "Jeltland" has moved to support irrident Jeltish population in the two smaller neighbouring countries of "Getland" and "Tungland", but the conflict spills over to involve Sweden as well.

 

[mrdab]

Interesting comment by human151 below this video, which says that in 1994 Ukraine gave away its nuclear arsenal to Russia in exchange for acknowledging the territorial integrity of Ukraine by Russia and USA and UK. Conclusion - never trust Russia and UK/USA, they do not keep its agreements and promises.

Fixed

 

[LamaGT]

Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine (Dispatch Eight):

<video>

In this video we can see the fascist thugs savagely blocking the kicks and punches with their faces. They must have received CIA training in this.

Interesting comment by human151 below this video, which says that in 1994 Ukraine gave away its nuclear arsenal to Russia in exchange for acknowledging the territorial integrity of Ukraine by Russia. Conclusion - never trust Russia, it does not keep its agreements and promises.

Unfortunately times like this bring out the worst in people. It's really bad that this is still dragging on, and I can't say anyone up top is doing anything to stop it. The idiots on the government while whining about Crimea and crying to the west are losing the rest of the country (if they ever had it)

 

[Agent327]

Fixed

Oh? When did the US and UK send troops to Ukraine? And how come world media missed theses startling developments?

 

[mrdab]

Oh? When did the US and UK send troops to Ukraine? And how come world media missed theses startling developments?

Oh? Maybe I meant that UK and UK didn't do anything significant (other than expressing grave concern and minor diplomatic sanctions) when Ukrainian territory was invaded, althought they guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity. Imho that makes them (UK/USA) unreliable & untrustworthy and their lack of credibility might somewhat affect their international reputation, especially when dealing with Iranian nuclear programme and other issues in which credibility is needed...