Your opinion about Tibet?

[Narz]

I recognize that Tibet exists. Beyond that nothing, they need China. Or India. Point being they can't go it alone.

How do you figure, they were doing fine for many centuries before. That's like saying the African colonies & India needed Europeans to run their nations (well some.. *cough* *amadeus* actually still believe that).

The whole world is US territory; we're just letting the other nations hold onto bits and portions for a while.

It's scary how many people seriously believe that!

 

[Immortal Ace]

It's scary how many people seriously believe that!

When I go to the Philippines I am going to claim supremacy as a first class citizen over the American Dominion of the Philippine's native inhabitants. I'm no going for the young boys either. I sense a joke coming again. >_>

 

[alex994]

Ask the falung gong. ask the students at the square of heavenly peace. Ask the Tibetans. Ask those who died under Mao's reign of terror.

To be honest, the Falun Gong pretty much asked to be persecuted by the PRC after their actions. You do not try to meet the Communist Party head on in a test of wills and because they threatened the Communist Party's power, they were seen as a threat and dealt with "appropriately". And the square of heavenly peace? It's called Tiananmen! If you want to criticize the PRC, at least do it in terms most people understand The students at Tiananmen were well-intentioned, but hopelessly idealistic, individuals who again should have saw what the Chinese Communist Party would have done to maintain power especially after they saw how other Communist Parties lost said power.

The Tibetans really aren't as bad off compared to the Falun Gong or the students in Tiananmen... Seriously, most people in China (plarq perhaps being an exception) don't see democracy as something that will magically turn China into a great human liberties-respecting country with rule of law and everything else that comes with the word "democracy." They just want a government which is more responsive to their needs.

If you choose to bring up the past of Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, I'm sure our glorious United States' treatment of Native Americans is much more heinous. As terrible as Mao was, he didn't intentionally want to kill millions of peasants as a side-effect of his programs while the same can't be said for the US a century and a half ago...

EDIT: I'm not saying that the Falun Gong or the students in Tiananmen Square were wrong in what they want, but merely stating they should have known what they were getting into. The persecution and deaths were pretty much to be expected.

 

[Dann]

Ask the falung gong. ask the students at the square of heavenly peace. Ask the Tibetans.

Minorities all. Currently the majority population here likes the status quo. They have a government that nobody really likes but at the same time is unhampered by the need to pander to anyone. Said government is also delivering where it counts. (It has to for its own survival!) Democracy and self-determination and all that are long term idealistic wishes but no one is in a particular hurry to demand them today. Getting more $$$ is what's important for now.

Ask those who died under Mao's reign of terror.

But the dead can't speak now can they? Anyway the past is past. We need to let go of historical baggage and look towards the future.

EDIT: cross-post with alex994...

 

[Dann]

When I go to the Philippines I am going to claim supremacy as a first class citizen over the American Dominion of the Philippine's native inhabitants. I'm no going for the young boys either. I sense a joke coming again. >_>

You're going after our old women? You sick pervert...

 

[philippe]

To be honest, the Falun Gong pretty much asked to be persecuted by the PRC after their actions. You do not try to meet the Communist Party head on in a test of wills and because they threatened the Communist Party's power, they were seen as a threat and dealt with "appropriately".

So you think, "dissenters" should be executed? heh, way to go China!
And the square of heavenly peace? It's called Tiananmen!

(to be honest i wanted to type that first but I didn't know how it was correctly spelled so... )

If you want to criticize the PRC, at least do it in terms most people understand The students at Tiananmen were well-intentioned, but hopelessly idealistic, individuals who again should have saw what the Chinese Communist Party would have done to maintain power especially after they saw how other Communist Parties lost said power.

i think hungary '56 and Prague '68 eventually hurted the USSR more in the long run. After all, it's difficult to garner support if you suppress students with tanks.

Same with China. How can you be supportive of a government that attacks it own citizens?

The Tibetans really aren't as bad off compared to the Falun Gong or the students in Tiananmen...

but they still aren't free.

Seriously, most people in China (plarq perhaps being an exception) don't see democracy as something that will magically turn China into a great human liberties-respecting country with rule of law and everything else that comes with the word "democracy." They just want a government which is more responsive to their needs.

i can understand that, but it's a bit contradictary with confucius teachings "after all, he was a man who put abilities from each man up front, and of course his own golden rule. (which can be found everywhere actually)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity
If you choose to bring up the past of Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, I'm sure our glorious United States' treatment of Native Americans is much more heinous. As terrible as Mao was, he didn't intentionally want to kill millions of peasants as a side-effect of his programs while the same can't be said for the US a century and a half ago...

two wrongs don't make a right.

in the end I wish all the best to the Chinese citizens. And i know that progress will take time, but just don't block the progress


oh and:

Anyway the past is past. We need to let go of historical baggage and look towards the future.

I agree, but don't be ignorant from the past or else history can repat itself

 

[Immortal Ace]

You're going after our old women? You sick pervert...

I have a granny fetish.

 

[linfeixb27]

TaiWan is Chinese territory, which is what I learned from our history text book. Maybe my son will learn that Tibet is Chinese territory. I do not see any righteousness in claiming lands but conquering. CCP conquered Tibet in 1950.
Maybe better words should be used, but that's my poor English. I think the word conquer is precise to discribe the fact.

 

[philippe]

TaiWan is Chinese territory, which is what I learned from our history text book. Maybe my son will learn that Tibet is Chinese territory. I do not see any righteousness in claiming lands but conquering. CCP conquered Tibet in 1950.
Maybe better words should be used, but that's my poor English. I think the word conquer is precise to discribe the fact.

Maybe i misunderstand you here (don't worry we are both non-native speakers of English) but do you give the green light for conquests then?

 

[alex994]

What I'm trying to say is that the Falun Gong was fully aware of the consequences of their actions; their choice in still going through, while certainly noble of them, is also rather idiotic as they faced certain persecution.

A small difference with Tiananmen Square is that looking back at it, most people in China think they were crazy students out of touch with the realities of common day life. Of course, there's always the crazier Chinese nationalists who believe that they were all funded by the CIA

Tibetans getting independence? Unless the EU, Russia, India, or the USA actually attack China for Tibet's independence, it won't happen. It wouldn't matter how much the Tibetans supposedly want independence (a majority of them not supporting independence aside), they won't get it. Being free is of course perhaps overrated; I don't agree with Patrick Henry obviously.

The current PRC is not the same as the one under Mao. In a measly thirty years, China has certainly improved in massive strides. That's the most important thing.

Taiwan is Chinese in the sense that Taiwan is actually the ROC (Republic of CHINA), you can't argue with that can you? Taiwan is Chinese, but not part of the PRC. One China, two countries so to speak.

 

[OttoManD]

I voted "What are you talking about?". Simply because even the Dalai Lama is now in talks with China's government trying to secure a mildly autonmous space in which the Tibetan culture and religion can thrive. That's the option I vote for

 

[philippe]

What I'm trying to say is that the Falun Gong was fully aware of the consequences of their actions; their choice in still going through, while certainly noble of them, is also rather idiotic as they faced certain persecution.

So, they deserve to die?

A small difference with Tiananmen Square is that looking back at it, most people in China think they were crazy students out of touch with the realities of common day life. Of course, there's always the crazier Chinese nationalists who believe that they were all funded by the CIA

so, they deserved to die?

Tibetans getting independence? Unless the EU, Russia, India, or the USA actually attack China for Tibet's independence, it won't happen. It wouldn't matter how much the Tibetans supposedly want independence (a majority of them not supporting independence aside), they won't get it. Being free is of course perhaps overrated; I don't agree with Patrick Henry obviously.

so, you support oppression?

The current PRC is not the same as the one under Mao. In a measly thirty years, China has certainly improved in massive strides. That's the most important thing.

yep, that's true, den xua ping (forgot name ) was a good leader for china

Taiwan is Chinese in the sense that Taiwan is actually the ROC (Republic of CHINA), you can't argue with that can you? Taiwan is Chinese, but not part of the PRC. One China, two countries so to speak.

I didn't even begin about, taiwan, but i guess it's part of the Chinese doctrine to begin about it

I, know it's a tad short, but then again I'm at work and I have to type sneaky

 

[Tee Kay]

The current PRC is not the same as the one under Mao. In a measly thirty years, China has certainly improved in massive strides. That's the most important thing.

yep, that's true, den xua ping (forgot name ) was a good leader for china

Deng Xiaopeng ordered the suppression of the Falun Gong and the Tiananmen Square Massacre. So, you support oppression?

 

[philippe]

Deng Xiaopeng ordered the suppression of the Falun Gong and the Tiananmen Square Massacre. So, you support oppression?

good point. Will react later. must be :sneaky: now.

edit: back from work, lunch break, Deng Xiaoping made a grave error there, but overall for China, he has been a lot better then any other commmunist dictator there.

and nope, I don't support oppression, don't accuse me of that.

 

[plarq]

Deng Xiaopeng ordered the suppression of the Falun Gong and the Tiananmen Square Massacre. So, you support oppression?

Deng Xiaoping ordered military suppression of Tiananmen Square Incident; Jiang Zeming ordered police and security force suppression of Falun Gong. Get your fact straight.

 

[GenMarshall]

I'd have to declare myself neutral on this part. I don't want to offend eather the pro-Chinese or pro-Tibet crowd .

 

[plarq]

Why? Stand with Pro-Freedom side, not on China and Tibet.

 

[aelf]

No and no. The Chinese have exerted their influence over Tibet, and soon will bring their empire and cultural clout over Asia, as the Europeans have done to the Americas.

So we have evolved from having apologists to having supremacists.

Is this the ultimate truth of Chinese sentiments? We've always known that China has an inferiority complex (as do a lot of Chinese outside China).

And I, for one, don't wish to be ruled by China. Asia would resist and, unlike the American Indians, much more effectively, especially with the backing of the rest of the world. Chinese blood would flow in sufficiently great amounts that it would not be worth even Mao's time.

 

[Narz]

I'd have to declare myself neutral on this part. I don't want to offend eather the pro-Chinese or pro-Tibet crowd .

Who cares about offending people!? Be brave. Have an opinion.

Personally I'm appalled at how many people seem to think China has a right to Tibet just because she conquered her (and in the process committed some of the worst atrocities of the 20th century [certainly in the top-20]). China has no more right to Tibet than Germany does to Poland or France does to Algeria.

 

[Joe Harker]

Tibet used to survive on its own before 1950, so why not now?
The Kingdom of Bhutan next door is what my best bet on what Tibet would look like and how it would operate and they have cope extremely well, i remember reading they were one of the happeist countries in the world Bhutan and yet they consist of mostly farmers. So this they won't survive on it's own is BS