2020 US Election (Part One)

[Lexicus]

I won't be surprised when they vote for someone worse than Trump. My intention is that they be revealed for the minority that they are and successfully isolated so that it won't matter how much of a loser the loser they vote for is.

The "deplorables" proper are a minority, but add the suburbanites the Democrats are currently courting (unlike you I don't believe that will last much longer, the interests of suburbanites are too at odds with the interests of the rest of the Democrats' coalition) plus the reactionary side of the capitalist class and you've got a coalition perfectly capable of electing more Presidents.

 

[Old Hippy]

It is more than a political slogan. It points policy back towards a mythical time that "we need to go back to". A time when rural whites had it good and at the expense of non whites. We are no longer a just white nation. The rural whites, now deplorables, got screwed over by the urban white capitalists. Rural life has been in decline for over a century and it will continue. From 2008 to 2017, 50% of the newly created jobs went to just 30 urban counties across the US. If rural Americans want to prosper, their best move is to the city and to learn currently demanded skill sets. If they can't/won't do that, they need to suck it up. Change happens.

change happens... they elected TRUMP people need to suck it up ... but 50% of the jobs did not go to just 30 urban centres(counties?)
my daughter lives rural (farms olives, 20 Kilometers out from a regional urban town) if that urban centre prospers she has access to better medical care, bushfire fighting capabilities,educational facilities shopping, sporting facilities, many government offices, and most importantly entry level jobs for her children generally a better lifestyle as opposed to a 6 hour drive each way to the capital city where I live
many rural towns are dying, creating just a dozen jobs can save them providing extra income or part time work for spouses, customers for local business
The urban white capitalists screwed over the regions by sending the manufacturing jobs to overseas countries many of whom have strict trade barriers in place with tariff walls. these same tariff walls that the EU, China,Japan Canada, South Korea, India have in place can make these regional places viable again. the goods are sold in the US so they would have the added advantage of cheaper transport cost eventually enticing the white urban capitalists back to US shores from overseas

 

[Lexicus]

many rural towns are dying, creating just a dozen jobs can save them providing extra income or part time work for spouses, customers for local business

This is hilarious because it shows such an utter ignorance of what is actually destroying these towns. Creating just a dozen jobs isn't going to save any of them.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The "deplorables" proper are a minority, but add the suburbanites the Democrats are currently courting (unlike you I don't believe that will last much longer, the interests of suburbanites are too at odds with the interests of the rest of the Democrats' coalition) plus the reactionary side of the capitalist class and you've got a coalition perfectly capable of electing more Presidents.

Did you miss the word "isolated"? It is important that the deplorables get isolated.

As to the suburbanites interests being "at odds with the interests of the rest of the democrats coalition," no, they aren't. Their interests may be at odds with the democrats own version of the deplorables...a minority that is trying to ride the democratic party into their own version of minority rule. We'd all be better off if they were isolated as well.

 

[Old Hippy]

President Of The United States of the United States of America.

What is this new country and when did it gain independence?

well caught

This is hilarious because it shows such an utter ignorance of what is actually destroying these towns. Creating just a dozen jobs isn't going to save any of them.

you don't live in a rural town do you

 

[Timsup2nothin]

you don't live in a rural town do you

Well played...no doubt as someone who doesn't even live in the same country your opinion has far more inherent credibility than his.



Check in with @onejayhawk...no doubt he will provide agreement and reinforce your position with his own credibility.

 

[Lexicus]

Did you miss the word "isolated"? It is important that the deplorables get isolated.

They are never going to be "isolated". It is in the interests of broad segments of capital to foment racism and racist divisions within the working class. Immigration law needs to be crafted in such a way as to furnish an ample group of people with no legal protections who can be limitlessly exploited.

As to the suburbanites interests being "at odds with the interests of the rest of the democrats coalition," no, they aren't.

Of course they are. They are the ones primarily responsible for hoarding the opportunities and resources desired by the dispossessed (young people, nonwhite urbanites) parts of the Democratic coalition.

Their interests may be at odds with the democrats own version of the deplorables...a minority that is trying to ride the democratic party into their own version of minority rule. We'd all be better off if they were isolated as well.

I agree we would be better if the "centrist" pro-Wall Street Democrats were isolated.

you don't live in a rural town do you

I don't know whether you live in one or not but the problem in many of these places is the loss of several hundred jobs all at once when the factory or whatever closes down. Adding a dozen jobs will not stop those communities from dying. We might be able to stop those communities from dying if we decide to prioritize society and social life over productivity and usefulness to capital, but again, the people living in these towns are mostly intractably opposed to this idea.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They are never going to be "isolated". It is in the interests of broad segments of capital to foment racism and racist divisions within the working class. Immigration law needs to be crafted in such a way as to furnish an ample group of people with no legal protections who can be limitlessly exploited.



Of course they are. They are the ones primarily responsible for hoarding the opportunities and resources desired by the dispossessed (young people, nonwhite urbanites) parts of the Democratic coalition.



I agree we would be better if the "centrist" pro-Wall Street Democrats were isolated.

It's funny how the "real Republicans" talk about getting rid of the RINOS, and the "real democrats" talk about getting rid of the "centrists," but the vast majority of the population are the centrist democrats and RINOS that are actually pretty much the same people. It would be really great if we all just got tired of being alternately ridden by the opposing extremists and isolated both groups at the same time so they could scream harmlessly until they got tired.

 

[mitsho]

you don't live in a rural town do you

I neither, but I would be interested in what counts as a rural town for you. Or the urban center you mentioned before. Cause yes, as Europe is so densely populated, I can't imagine what a true rural environment would look like.

(Still, most people live in cities, it's way easier to help a lot more people there on every dollar spent)

 

[Old Hippy]

It's hilarious to me because the "flyover states" spent decades voting for the party whose orthodoxy held that there is literally no higher social good than producing profits for shareholders. Oh and they still routinely denounce anyone who says that society should be valued more than business profits as a socialist and therefore only half a step above the antichrist.

Now you know why the Republican party fought so hard to stop Trump.everything he has done goes against the party whose orthodoxy would have them happily moving their business to China
He took the party from the rich Capitalists to the working class man where the social good of producing profits for shareholders is now second place to providing jobs and a future to strive for .... he just has to produce it or be well on his way or he will not be elected in 2020
a balance can be reached between capitalism and socialism, look at Scandinavian countries or Australia where universal health care and social services are fundamental to Government policy on the left and right of politics

 

[Lexicus]

It's funny how the "real Republicans" talk about getting rid of the RINOS, and the "real democrats" talk about getting rid of the "centrists," but the vast majority of the population are the centrist democrats and RINOS that are actually pretty much the same people. It would be really great if we all just got tired of being alternately ridden by the opposing extremists and isolated both groups at the same time so they could scream harmlessly until they got tired.

Well this is a nice rant and all (I particularly enjoyed the skill with which you indirectly insulted me) but it doesn't explain why I'm wrong that the suburbanites the Democrats are currently courting can only be won over at the expense of enthusiasm and turnout among the other parts of the Democratic coalition. Disgust at Trump and the Republicans' excesses might be good for a cycle or two but it's not going to sustain anyone in loyalty to the Democrats, especially after Trump has exited the stage.

As to the "centrist Democrats," just read what they are writing about "populism" in the mainstream press these days. Imo it's obvious that they would prefer some form of minority rule that would guarantee that "qualified" and expert-approved people hold office to a majority-rule system where people can't be trusted to vote sensibly. The "real Democrats" you don't like seem to mostly be trying to get the party to adopt positions which are actually supported by supermajorities of the population but which are toxic to the Democrats' donor class (and incidentally to many of the suburbanites, whose attitude to politics can be summarized by "screw you, Jack, I've got mine").

Now you know why the Republican party fought so hard to stop Trump.everything he has done goes against the party whose orthodoxy would have them happily moving their business to China
He took the party from the rich Capitalists to the working class man where the social good of producing profits for shareholders is now second place to providing jobs and a future to strive for ....

He is not changing either the reality or the orthodoxy. His policy accomplishments are all basically the opposite of what you're claiming here.

 

[Old Hippy]

Well played...no doubt as someone who doesn't even live in the same country your opinion has far more inherent credibility than his.
.

so now Nationalism becomes a valid argument for you

 

[Gori the Grey]

That's weird to me. What is the point of electing a Democrat at all if you don't care about policies?

I am electing a Democrat. You can print the ballot right now--Trump vs Whoever Wins the Democratic Nomination--and I'm ready to cast my vote. Policies will shift adequately in the direction I want to see them shift if any Democrat replaces Trump. So I'm interested in getting some Democrat to replace Trump. And I think voice has a bearing on that.

On your question about gender, the kind of voice needed to contest Trump effectively will in our society more frequently be found in men than in women. Sadly.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

so now Nationalism becomes a valid argument for you

Perhaps you need to review the definition of nationalism. If I tell you that the weather is clear so you won't need an umbrella and you don't rely on my opinion that isn't nationalism, it's just the most basic level of sense.

 

[Lexicus]

On your question about gender, the kind of voice needed to contest Trump effectively will in our society more frequently be found in men than in women. Sadly.

And why do you think this is?

 

[metatron]

The "deplorables" proper are a minority,

Uhuh...

Well, I didn't do that, I just said what I'd prefer.

So, you people don't want to talk to me about my politics and culture.
And you don't want me to have an opinion on your politics and culture.
And whenever there are resolute dissenters from your own country around you guys seriously turn to visciousness.
That's an interesting pattern.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well this is a nice rant and all (I particularly enjoyed the skill with which you indirectly insulted me) but it doesn't explain why I'm wrong that the suburbanites the Democrats are currently courting can only be won over at the expense of enthusiasm and turnout among the other parts of the Democratic coalition. Disgust at Trump and the Republicans' excesses might be good for a cycle or two but it's not going to sustain anyone in loyalty to the Democrats, especially after Trump has exited the stage.

As to the "centrist Democrats," just read what they are writing about "populism" in the mainstream press these days. Imo it's obvious that they would prefer some form of minority rule that would guarantee that "qualified" and expert-approved people hold office to a majority-rule system where people can't be trusted to vote sensibly. The "real Democrats" you don't like seem to mostly be trying to get the party to adopt positions which are actually supported by supermajorities of the population but which are toxic to the Democrats' donor class (and incidentally to many of the suburbanites, whose attitude to politics can be summarized by "screw you, Jack, I've got mine").

Wait, what? I was indirect?

I didn't want to be indirect. I also didn't want to be insulting. Yes, I do think you are an extremist, but that in itself isn't a condemnation as far as I am concerned. Your motives are better than the deplorables, but you are still just as extreme. They want an extremist that represents them to lead the nation, and need enough of the centrists to side with them to make it happen, and so do you. And neither of you want the centrists to all join one party or the other, because the centrists are in fact a majority all by themselves and if they ever unite then none of the extremists will get their way.

 

[Lexicus]

Wait, what? I was indirect?

Well you still haven't responded to the actual argument I made.

And neither of you want the centrists to all join one party or the other, because the centrists are in fact a majority all by themselves and if they ever unite then none of the extremists will get their way.

I'm not worried about that. Any party consisting of only centrists would never accomplish anything because centrists fetishize agonized indecision, and wouldn't last very long before too many of the centrists decided they were above labels and groupthink.

Uhuh...

Yes. Note my use of scare quotes around the word. Calling them "deplorables" is politically correct cowardice, I prefer a term like "fascist jackals" myself.

And you don't want me to have an opinion on your politics and culture.

I just don't want you to waste your time by posting a multiparagraph rant responding to something I never said or even implied.

And whenever there are resolute dissenters from your own country around you guys seriously turn to visciousness.

There is no point wasting kindness on the aforementioned fascist jackals.

 

[Old Hippy]

I neither, but I would be interested in what counts as a rural town for you. Or the urban center you mentioned before. Cause yes, as Europe is so densely populated, I can't imagine what a true rural environment would look like.

(Still, most people live in cities, it's way easier to help a lot more people there on every dollar spent)

89% of Australians live in the urban centres we are not very rural by nature
a true rural environment is found between the state capitals where you can drive for hours and find nothing but farmland
I live in Melbourne Australia pop about 3 million the state capital of Victoria
regional urban centre Ballarat pop 100,000
daughters farm near addington pop 71

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well you still haven't responded to the actual argument I made.

Let me try again...if the centrists from both parties come to agreement the lack of enthusiasm from the extremists doesn't matter.