2020 US Election (Part One)

[Timsup2nothin]

The quotation marks were meant to suggest that I wasn't speaking personally.

But you're assuming bad intentions that don't exist. Every problem with the US-Mexico border is based on the fact that it's porous. The drug cartels' existence is based on the fact that it's porous. A lot of the corruption and evil the gangs and traffickers inflict upon Mexico itself, controlling and murdering officials, is funded by their abuse of the border.

Trump wants it sealed. I would like it sealed. Most of his voters would like it sealed. Quite a few Democrats would like it sealed. A wall alone is useless, but would it be an important element of defense if the border were to be guarded and the cartels sunk? Yes.

Says who? This latest retrofitting "well, nothing works without a wall" has absolutely no more basis in fact than the old "a wall will do it by itself" fantasy had.

 

[Takhisis]

Every problem with the US-Mexico border is based on the fact that it's porous. The drug cartels' existence is based on the fact that it's porous. A lot of the corruption and evil the gangs and traffickers inflict upon Mexico itself, controlling and murdering officials, is funded by their abuse of the border.

It has already been pointed out (and sometimes temporarily admitted by Trump's underlings) that the border is nowhere near the main point of entry for drugs into the US.

Neither is the highly profitable and illegal sales of firearms from US weaponmakers to Mexican and Colombian drug cartels.

Most of his voters would like it sealed. Quite a few Democrats would like it sealed.

Again, [citation needed]

if the border were to be guarded and the cartels sunk

Why not improve on the DEA's capabilities then?

 

[Lexicus]

Every problem with the US-Mexico border is based on the fact that it's porous.

Actually, every problem with the US-Mexico border is based on the fact that it's not porous enough.

 

[Estebonrober]

No amnesty (the real humanitarian crisis is 11 million people not counted as citizens (this generates more crimes involving them)), No wall. If you really want to fix the immigration problem help these countries respect the rule of law in their own lands. It's impossible to keep dedicated people (you know the ones who are going to excel here) from getting out of terrible situations and coming to places where they can at least make some headway and their children might have recourse to a real legal system (flawed it may be).

Over 50% of illegals come from planes, almost all contraband comes through ports of entry or by sea. Your ignorance on the topic is showing just like Trump's does every time he opens his mouth.​

 

[sophie]

Over 50% of illegals come from planes, almost all contraband comes through ports of entry or by sea. Your ignorance on the topic is showing just like Trump's does every time he opens his mouth.​

Don't forget that undocumented immigrants staying and bringing/pulling in their extended families didn't really become a thing until we started militarizing the borders and politicizing migrant farm laborers as "illegal immigrants"

 

[rah]

I'd give him the 5.5 billion if he made all the current DACA citizens.

 

[Estebonrober]

I'd give him the 5.5 billion if he made all the current DACA citizens.

I want tosay I agree with this, but its such a pull to the right on the topic. It wasn't long ago we were talking about a pathway to citizenship for all illegals here for "border security". Just because Cantor got primaried in Georgia over that deal and it fell through because a bunch of right wing zealots doesn't mean the rest of the nation should make that lurch to the "right" on the topic. Frankly I'd like us to tell every "freedom" caucus member to go fly kites.

 

[rah]

I figure it would still be a compromise. That 5.5 billion won't build the whole wall and citizenship for DACA won't solve the whole immigration problem. Fair to me.

 

[Estebonrober]

I figure it would still be a compromise. That 5.5 billion won't build the whole wall and citizenship for DACA won't solve the whole immigration problem. Fair to me.

Yea, I'm just not very conciliatory these days. Must be the TDS syndrome the Trumpists are always going on about. This is why words matter.

 

[Tristan_C]

Yea, I'm just not very conciliatory these days. Must be the TDS syndrome the Trumpists are always going on about. This is why words matter.

While I detested most of what Obama did there are notable exceptions. I appreciated his quiet, staggered withdrawal from Iraq for example. Unlike what the talking points say, I don't blame him for the formation of the Islamic State ISIS. The ignorant barbarians we left behind built that. Obama was a great speaker. I can't stand listening to Hillary, Trump, or Bush.

And finally Obama made good-faith efforts to secure the border (or more accurately, preserve the current level of security). He built or restored 600 miles of barriers. Despite every incentive to do so for his party's advantage, he did not cut resources for the border patrol, or for ICE, or amnetize illegal residents. I want to think that he did all this not only because the R's controlled the house most of the time, but because it was right.

Which brings us to [current year] and why the hell this is so irreconcilable now, when it was never this bad even as recently as 2015, and yes, I think it's because Trump as a character is too close to the center of the debate, rather than the public policy questions. I think the press has some responsibilty for this (reply 1532) in its drift from journalism to becoming an arm of the #Resistance. But we conservatives always hated them anyway so we share some responsibility in helping to shape their priorities. The loss of quality journalism has led to unrest in the country.

 

[Ajidica]

But you're assuming bad intentions that don't exist. Every problem with the US-Mexico border is based on the fact that it's porous. The drug cartels' existence is based on the fact that it's porous. A lot of the corruption and evil the gangs and traffickers inflict upon Mexico itself, controlling and murdering officials, is funded by their abuse of the border.

The thing is though, the drugs and weapons gangs smuggle aren't being carried across the open desert like some sort of narcotic Ho Chi Minh Trail. Instead, they are being smuggled in across legal points of entry along the border in semi trucks or train cars. A border wall would do absolutely nothing to stop the smuggling of drugs and weapons through ports of entry. Indeed, it might make it worse as it would take resources and attention away from ports of entry and refocus it toward a completely useless lump of concrete.

Trump wants it sealed. I would like it sealed. Most of his voters would like it sealed. Quite a few Democrats would like it sealed.

What does "sealed" mean? As noted, the overwhelming majority of smuggling occurs through ports of entry which nobody outside of some nutjobs are arguing should be closed up.

A wall alone is useless, but would it be an important element of defense if the border were to be guarded and the cartels sunk? Yes.

So, what are you envisioning? A sort of Berlin Wall with minefields?

 

[Takhisis]

So, what are you envisioning? A sort of Berlin Wall with minefields?

The Mexicans will contribute towards the wall by agreeing to some sort of easement by which a 100-m. strip of ground is used for a moat skirting the wall™ and then some minefields immediately south. Progress!

 

[Estebonrober]

Which brings us to [current year] and why the hell this is so irreconcilable now, when it was never this bad even as recently as 2015, and yes, I think it's because Trump as a character is too close to the center of the debate, rather than the public policy questions. I think the press has some responsibilty for this (reply 1532) in its drift from journalism to becoming an arm of the #Resistance. But we conservatives always hated them anyway so we share some responsibility in helping to shape their priorities. The loss of quality journalism has led to unrest in the country.

Maybe they have some responsibility for stopping the drag of the Overton Window to the right. At some point it is the job of the press to "resist" hard right or left pulls. I think this really began when the republicans began going "freedom" caucus on us. Its just batfeces level crazy. It represents a very small portion of the population even in the areas its coming from which itself is sparsely populated compared to the East or West Coasts. I'll again point to Eric Cantor. When that man, who at the time I thought was too far right wing, was defeated in a primary by a further right winger, that was it for me. It was especially it for me since it centered around this immigration debate and the fact that Cantor had made a deal that lead to citizenship for the 11 million here, who have been, and who will continue to be here.

I support the press 110%, they don't go far enough, everything Republicans basically do now is detrimental to the long term health of the nation and its people. It only supports the top 10%, it has no concerns for our children or grandchildren. It has no concerns for minorities. It has no concern for ethics, the rule of law, or hell even decency in business. We are witnessing a blitzkrieg on the economic health of the nation because they and their donors know they will get rich off of it or they have such a severely misguided sense of social justice they will take us back to 1890 and their libertarian fever dream of "equality".

In short I call your complaint utter nonsense and I ask you to wake up from your stupor. We resist this party because its killing us, our children's futures, and their children's futures with a callous disregard.

 

[Berzerker]

If the wall wont work why did we put up the barriers we have now? The argument most stuff comes thru ports of entry ignores that we're spending big bucks to enhance detection and once we get good enough all that open desert will become used even more by traffickers. If a wall deters people from crossing open desert wont lives be saved? These arguments against the wall are at odds with the fact we already have miles and miles of walls and fences etc.

What has Trump actually done to threaten these entrenched interests, beyond general mis-management of the federal apparatus?

Trade war... All them businesses that spent decades moving jobs overseas only to export that production back to the USA have a vested interest in defeating Trump's trade agenda.

 

[Takhisis]

If the wall wont work why did we put up the barriers we have now? The argument most stuff comes thru ports of entry ignores that we're spending big bucks to enhance detection and once we get good enough all that open desert will become used even more by traffickers.

[citation needed]

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If the wall wont work why did we put up the barriers we have now?

Because those barriers are in urban areas adjacent to border crossing points. A gate requires barriers on either side of it to direct flow through the gate, but a random piece of fencing fifty miles from any gate is just a speedbump. No one is going to find a fence in the middle of the desert and say "wow, better turn around and go find a gate," they're just going over, under, or through it.

This answer is so patently obvious that one has to assume that Trump and his mindless minions are intentionally trying to pretend it just doesn't exist.

 

[FriendlyFire]

If the wall wont work why did we put up the barriers we have now? The argument most stuff comes thru ports of entry ignores that we're spending big bucks to enhance detection and once we get good enough all that open desert will become used even more by traffickers. If a wall deters people from crossing open desert wont lives be saved? These arguments against the wall are at odds with the fact we already have miles and miles of walls and fences etc.

You think the demand for illicate hard drugs from Americans isnt going to be met ?
You think that drug traffickers are incapable to opening a new route from smuggling drugs to feed the massive US demand ?

Were talking about how effective a massive wall, cost of patroling and building roads
If it US wanted to it could build a double wall, manned watch towers, and 100% camera coverage. The costs would be staggering which is why you dont do it and it would only lock down on route for drugs / illegals into the US

Trade war... All them businesses that spent decades moving jobs overseas only to export that production back to the USA have a vested interest in defeating Trump's trade agenda.

Libertarians belief in Free trade and Free Market ?
Why is it that "vested interest" of corporation has suddenly become a bad thing ?

 

[Berzerker]

[citation needed]

For what?

Because those barriers are in urban areas adjacent to border crossing points. A gate requires barriers on either side of it to direct flow through the gate, but a random piece of fencing fifty miles from any gate is just a speedbump. No one is going to find a fence in the middle of the desert and say "wow, better turn around and go find a gate," they're just going over, under, or through it.

This answer is so patently obvious that one has to assume that Trump and his mindless minions are intentionally trying to pretend it just doesn't exist.

Walls? We dont need no stinking walls... Sheriff Bart's toll booth worked great on Hedley Lamarr's army without any walls. Yup, the walls/fences we have emanated from the gates near cities. But if we get effective enough at those crossing points the open border becomes more inviting. If we could stop 99% of the drugs at ports of entry wont the traffickers just head in another direction?

You think the demand for illicate hard drugs from Americans isnt going to be met ? You think that drug traffickers are incapable to opening a new route from smuggling drugs to feed the massive US demand ?

No to both... Once we get good at plugging a hole they'll find another one - and the open desert is just waiting.

Were talking about how effective a massive wall, cost of patroling and building roads
If it US wanted to it could build a double wall, manned watch towers, and 100% camera coverage. The costs would be staggering which is why you dont do it and it would only lock down on route for drugs / illegals into the US

Libertarians belief in Free trade and Free Market ?
Why is it that "vested interest" of corporation has suddenly become a bad thing ?

Libertarians aren't running the show

 

[Estebonrober]

For what?

I'd like to see any citation of industry moving back because of Trump's trade war personally. I've not heard of anything formal.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Libertarians aren't running the show

Make American 1929 Again !
You cant demand tariffs, susidies, bailouts while shrilling free market