2020 US Election (Part One)

[Ironsided]

So this raises a puzzle. A Bernie supporter has to make the argument that Bernie is the best to beat Trump, of course, but some are going even farther, saying that they know Trump will win unless Bernie gets the nomination. But then the question becomes...Who's responsibility is it to see to it that Bernie gets nominated? Surely, its not the responsibility of Biden supporters or Warren supporters etc., right? It has to be the responsibility of Bernie and his supporters to get Bernie nominated, right? So if Bernie loses, its the fault of Bernie and his supporters, right? So if you knew, that Trump would win unless Bernie was nominated... and you failed to get Bernie nominated... then isn't Trump winning your fault since Bernie's nomination was your responsibility?

If there is an alternative to this reasoning, I would really like to hear it, because this seems like the only logical conclusion based on the above premise.

At least Bernie has supporters filling stadiums. Biden mainly have default American spinelessness and complacency on his side – they just happen to be more numerous so far.

 

[Patine]

Trump will get a second term, the Democrats will blame Bernie and shift evermore to the right, learning nothing at all.

Frankly, as horrible as Trump is, the WHOLE nation will not move to the right, only those already inclined to do so. Trump is not really a social engineer or mover in and of himself, only an enabler (another reason he's not remotely a Fascist by definition). Massachusetts, Illinois, and California are not going to turn more "red," as States, and people with Progressive, Social Democratic, Liberal, or even Moderate viewpoints are not be "converted" to ideological Conservatives. And most of the policies you, yourself, fear drastically changing under Trump are actually State jurisdictions or were already "legislated from the bench," in a way a one- or even two-Conservative justice Supreme Court would find a very difficult way of wording it's way around in the modern day and age.

 

[Sommerswerd]

At least Bernie has supporters filling stadiums. Biden mainly have default American spinelessness and complacency on his side – they just happen to be more numerous so far.

Well, nobody's filling stadiums now, thanks to coronavirus so...

 

[Ironsided]

Fantastic retort. I’m sure hobbs will love it.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I’ve heard this, but yet to see objective evidence that points to Republican malevolence as the culprit.

Then you aren't looking. Evidence has been posted either in this very thread or others. I saw an article on it here just this morning while doing my morning sweep of the threads.

Fantastic retort. I’m sure hobbs will love it.

I did.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Frankly, as horrible as Trump is, the WHOLE nation will not move to the right, only those already inclined to do so. Trump is not really a social engineer or mover in and of himself, only an enabler (another reason he's not remotely a Fascist by definition). Massachusetts, Illinois, and California are not going to turn more "red," as States, and people with Progressive, Social Democratic, Liberal, or even Moderate viewpoints are not be "converted" to ideological Conservatives. And most of the policies you, yourself, fear drastically changing under Trump are actually State jurisdictions or were already "legislated from the bench," in a way a one- or even two-Conservative justice Supreme Court would find a very difficult way of wording it's way around in the modern day and age.

As I've said before... these primary results are starting to make me question how strong the "revolution/anti-establishment" vote really is. In retrospect, its starting to look more like the 2016 Democratic primary result, whereby Bernie was giving Hillary a run for her money, and the 2016 general election result, where Trump won, were more about folks anti-Hillary voting, rather than pro-Bernie or pro-Trump voting.

If this reasoning holds up, then Biden has a decent shot at actually winning the general against Trump.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

So this raises a puzzle. A Bernie supporter has to make the argument that Bernie is the best to beat Trump, of course, but some are going even farther, saying that they know Trump will win unless Bernie gets the nomination. But then the question becomes...Who's responsibility is it to see to it that Bernie gets nominated? Surely, its not the responsibility of Biden supporters or Warren supporters etc., right? It has to be the responsibility of Bernie and his supporters to get Bernie nominated, right? So if Bernie loses, its the fault of Bernie and his supporters, right? So if you knew, that Trump would win unless Bernie was nominated... and you failed to get Bernie nominated... then isn't Trump winning your fault since Bernie's nomination was your responsibility?

If there is an alternative to this reasoning, I would really like to hear it, because this seems like the only logical conclusion based on the above premise.

What sort of bs is this? You seriously, genuinely think Sander's supporters have anywhere near the level of power the dnc, as an insitution, have?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

You seriously, genuinely think Sander's supporters have anywhere near the level of power the dnc, as an insitution, have?

The DNC isn't stopping Bernie's supporters from turning out.

 

[Kyriakos]

The DNC isn't stopping Bernie's supporters from turning out.

This is obviously a good point. But young people are more difficult to bother to go vote. Old (and very old) people traditionally always vote (in all countries, or at least similar ones to the US). Problem is that now the bulk of the young won't in the general election either, which - along with the other issues a Biden candidacy has - imo makes it almost impossible for him to be potus.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Problem is that now the bulk of the young won't in the general election either

I don't think this is true really. We've yet to see the actual campaign kick into high gear and Bernie's supporters are about to have a few months to cool their heels and lick their wounds.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The DNC isn't stopping Bernie's supporters from turning out.

No, they're just throwing their weight behind their prefered candidate

 

[cardgame]

A highly publicized debate might turn the tables. If Biden is allowed to coast into the nomination completely unchallenged - that is the only scenario where he wins easily.

 

[Patine]

No, they're just throwing their weight behind their prefered candidate

As I've said, but nobody else is listening, believes, or cares, the DNC is very much a successor to men like Boss Tweed and Boss Crump (and the RNC very much to men like Roscoe Conklin) - including being almost as corrupt and willing to tilt the result, or even try to decide, their party's nominees.

 

[Gori the Grey]

It's Biden Time

He was just bidin' his time until Super Tuesday and this conclusive set of wins.

Biden mainly have default American spinelessness and complacency on his side – they just happen to be more numerous so far.

The funny thing is that in America, we go by numerousness.* And, of course, primary voters who got out and voted for Biden are ipso facto not "complacent."

*mostly

 

[Lexicus]

Look Bernie is losing because he didn't convince enough people to vote for him. It's as simple as that. His theory of turning out people who are nonvoters was wrong.

Bernie supporters like me now need to reflect on this and figure out how to change our approach so that our policies and message can win. Remember majorities of Democrats say, in (afaik) every state, that they support Bernie's policies. That is reason to be optimistic for the future. But we need to act with some humility and self-crit and stop acting like sore losers. I still see people posting angrily as if Bernie folks are a majority of the voters - not true. I see posting of conspiracy theories about election rigging - and I understand why, losing sucks, but we owe it to ourselves and each other to face the facts here and not act like Hillary Clinton, blaming everything and everyone but ourselves and our candidate.

Last night Biden said "I want to thank Bernie Sanders and his supporters for their tireless energy and their passion. We share a common goal - and together we'll defeat Donald Trump. We'll defeat him together."

I gotta say that damn near won me over. It made me feel like he might actually be able to beat Trump, and it made me feel as a Bernie supporter that I'm welcome and "in the club". He's winning because he says stuff like that.

 

[Estebonrober]

Looks like Bernie is going to force a debate. Good.

Look Bernie is losing because he didn't convince enough people to vote for him. It's as simple as that. His theory of turning out people who are nonvoters was wrong.

Bernie supporters like me now need to reflect on this and figure out how to change our approach so that our policies and message can win. Remember majorities of Democrats say, in (afaik) every state, that they support Bernie's policies. That is reason to be optimistic for the future. But we need to act with some humility and self-crit and stop acting like sore losers. I still see people posting angrily as if Bernie folks are a majority of the voters - not true. I see posting of conspiracy theories about election rigging - and I understand why, losing sucks, but we owe it to ourselves and each other to face the facts here and not act like Hillary Clinton, blaming everything and everyone but ourselves and our candidate.

Last night Biden said "I want to thank Bernie Sanders and his supporters for their tireless energy and their passion. We share a common goal - and together we'll defeat Donald Trump. We'll defeat him together."

I gotta say that damn near won me over. It made me feel like he might actually be able to beat Trump, and it made me feel as a Bernie supporter that I'm welcome and "in the club". He's winning because he says stuff like that.

I doubt the club is going to feel so peachy after Joe is in front of a camera trying to keep up with sanders for 2 hours. . .in primetime. He better get some good rest at siesta!

 

[Lexicus]

Looks like Bernie is going to force a debate. Good.



I doubt the club is going to feel so peachy after Joe is in front of a camera trying to keep up with sanders for 2 hours. . .in primetime. He better get some good rest at siesta!

Judging by what's happened so far Bernie's debate performance is gonna make his own supporters love him more while only repelling everyone else. It is probably already too late but Bernie must shift gears from "angry rebel attacking party establishment" to "together we will defeat Donald Trump" or the debate is actually going to hasten his fall.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I respect your opinion Lexicus, it just worries me that in our haste to remove one mentally declining, old bigot, we'll just elect one of a slightly different political shade.

 

[Sommerswerd]

What sort of bs is this? You seriously, genuinely think Sander's supporters have anywhere near the level of power the dnc, as an insitution, have?

Did "the DNC as an institution" publicly endorse Biden? Or are you talking about the individual Democratic politicians who endorsed Biden collectively as "the DNC"? Or is it Democratic voters as a whole that you are referring to as the DNC? Because it almost sounds like you're complaining that Bernie lost because his supporters are less numerous, and as a result have less "power" collectively, than the "Democrats"... If that's really your position its hard to argue with that, except to say that this is part of how elections, in theory, are supposed to go. The more numerous side has more power, ie the better chance of winning the dispute.

I'll also point out that if you're blaming Biden voters/endorsers for Bernie's losses, because they failed to vote for/support Bernie... how can you complain about Bernie supporters being blamed if Biden loses to Trump for their failure to vote for Biden? Isn't that the exact same thing?

No, they're just throwing their weight behind their prefered candidate

Who, to your mind, should they "throw their weight behind"? Someone they don't prefer?

A highly publicized debate might turn the tables.

Very true, this is certainly a possibility.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't think this is true really. We've yet to see the actual campaign kick into high gear and Bernie's supporters are about to have a few months to cool their heels and lick their wounds.

I've noticed this cycle that multiple states where Bernie won in 2016, but then Biden won in 2020 had substantially increased turnout, whereas some places where Bernie won had similar or lowered turnout (vs 2018 or 2016). This cuts against the narrative that Bernie is rallying increased turnout to his banner. If anything, it seems like Biden is the one who is possibly driving turnout... which I will admit is pretty surprising.