Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

[das]

Mesopotamia to Soghidana (spelling's off, I know) to the Indus to the Caucasus is an excellently sized empire for anyone, I think.

Sure, and it's going to be easier to keep together.

Persia has a very vibrant culture and scientific tradition itself

I can't really find much about Persia's scientific tradition as distinct from that of Babylonia. The culture is good, though.

What particularly interests me is the fate of Egypt, because I think that in this world the native 30th dynasty might very well hold on to power. Greek culture still will spread with Greek merchants and Greek mercenaries, but I imagine that it will have much less influence than in OTL (also, there will be no Alexandria, but I think that Navkratis would probably become a very prominent cultural center in its stead, in addition to remaining Egypt's greatest harbour and a center of maritime commerce). The Egyptian renaissance may start anew.

 

[KrimzonStriker]

OOC: I can already see the criticism that may come from this as it has to do with current events and post-modern events but this is for my pure enjoyment and perhaps flesh out some ideas for a post-modern NES. Enjoy!

Alternate History: The Coming of the Horsemen

Part 1 – The World Undone

The year is 2012 and the world’s seams are fraying and threatening to come undone.

January 20th 2009 Barack Obama of the United States of America is sworn in, as the 44th President, with his Vice President Hillary Clinton. But that was 3 years ago. Only today are the effects of the president’s years in office showing themselves.

Prior to the United States Elections of 2008 insurgent attacks in Iraq had plummeted marking a time of unpleasant and weary silence in the region. Then President George W. Bush called for rollbacks in his 2007 Troop Surge declaring it had been a success while pointing at the statistics in the region. Presidential candidate in 2008 Sen. John McCain called the victory “A victory for the World and Democracy.” However Democrats across the nation criticized the administration for too little action too late. The presidential Candidate for the Democrats Sen. Obama called for complete withdrawal from Iraq claiming that now would be the time to allow the Iraqi’s to prove their strength.

The American people found themselves more equally divided then ever. Sen. Obama in 2008 took former adversary Sen. Hillary Clinton as his running mate, National media calling it the “Dream Ticket”. The nickname stuck, proving its truth when voters in record numbers selected the Democratic “Dream Ticket” over Sen. McCain and Gov. Huckabee.

In 2009 Congress passed the Iraqi Peace Declaration that signified the end of a 6-½ year war. Rollbacks in Coalition troops began immediately. With the final troops leaving before 2010. Amid chaos and civil war the American government abandoned the fledgling Iraqi Government. Despite weak leadership and an untrained militia police force the Iraqi Government did not fight the withdrawal of American Troops and rather welcomed the chance to prove themselves.

Great technological and scientific advances also marked the year 2010. Dr. Jefferson Ravenwood of Biomed of America was successful in advancing the field in nanotechnology and the use of these “Nanos” in ways only dreamed of in Science Fiction. With the new technology the center of military attention from all over the world places of lawlessness are free to stagnate and evolve into war zones.

Part 2 - PMC's and the War Zones
Preview: The dynamics of the evolving war zones is revealed. The Middle East, Africa, Balkans, South America and South East Asia are all run by the war economy and the never ending struggle between rebel factions and Private Military Companies.

Bit too much MGS4 influence in the story, but at the same time my interest is piqued at the prospect of running a PMC and fighting proxy wars across the world

 

[Symphony D.]

Demonstrates a completely amateur understanding of what's going on it American politics at the moment to be sure.

 

[human-slaughter]

Well lets put it this way Krimson I had just beaten the game when I decided on the idea and Symph. your comments amuse me. We shall see what happens in the following months. In fact I have not even started to talk about the economy effect on this story plus you may indeed check out the latest stories coming from Iraq we have indeed seen large decreases in American Casualties and fighting and many war zones in Baghdad are becoming safer. Which just leads to my inkling that the insurgents are in fact laying low or moving out of the region to prepare when they can sweep in a take out the non-American controlled Iraq again.

I appreciate the criticism however if you have nothing to add its quite worthless criticism to me.

 

[Dachs]

Wouldn't Jason have developed something like the phalanx as well after facing the Boeotians?

That's the thing, though; I'd always thought that Philippos introduced the drill aspect into a preexisting feudal formation that Thessalia would be missing. (Relatively) strong Makedonian infantry had always existed, as opposed to Thessalia, which was reduced to using mercenaries for the line even during Jason's time. I don't even know if the social preconditions for a phalangial system even exist in Thessalia of the time.

In any case, wouldn't gains in Western Anatolia be much more sustainable?

That is the other side of the coin, except for the fact that Hellenistic culture did just grandly and was very sustainable.

Most of those defeats were on the western periphery; had the Greeks successfully pushed into the heart Asia Minor, it would have been a different thing entirely. I suppose that the empire could very well have survived a defeat there, but the loss of the Eastern Mediterranean is certainly an option if we remember that Egypt had already broken away earlier in Artaxertes II's reign.

And with the loss of a lot of the Eastern Mediterranean trade, wouldn't any Persian Empire confined to, say, the limits of Parthia or the Sassanid Eranshahr be significantly less powerful? I'm afraid I don't know how lucrative that was for them as compared to, say, keleuthos bombykike.

What particularly interests me is the fate of Egypt, because I think that in this world the native 30th dynasty might very well hold on to power. Greek culture still will spread with Greek merchants and Greek mercenaries, but I imagine that it will have much less influence than in OTL (also, there will be no Alexandria, but I think that Navkratis would probably become a very prominent cultural center in its stead, in addition to remaining Egypt's greatest harbour and a center of maritime commerce). The Egyptian renaissance may start anew.

That would be interesting. As NK asked, though, what would happen to Makedonia? I personally think that they were a bit more powerful than the Thessalians; tactically, at least, the advantage of the hippeis Thessalikoi is largely negated by the prodromoi and the hetairoi, while the Makedonian phalangial system is superior to anything Thessalia could field. Other Makedonian advantages would be being able to call on the amazing Thraikian rhomphaiaphoroi, some of the best close-combat infantry in history, and the Agrianikoi pelekuphoroi. And economically, Makedonia has a fantastic amount of good mining, control over a lot of lumber and good harbors, and is in a better position to seize control of the Hellespontine trade with the critical Euxine grain ports.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Well lets put it this way Krimson I had just beaten the game when I decided on the idea and Symph. your comments amuse me. We shall see what happens in the following months. In fact I have not even started to talk about the economy effect on this story plus you may indeed check out the latest stories coming from Iraq we have indeed seen large decreases in American Casualties and fighting and many war zones in Baghdad are becoming safer. Which just leads to my inkling that the insurgents are in fact laying low or moving out of the region to prepare when they can sweep in a take out the non-American controlled Iraq again.

I appreciate the criticism however if you have nothing to add its quite worthless criticism to me.

Well he could elaborate in saying that Obama would never have Hillary as a VP (as the GOP can then drag up all the nasty crap she said about him in the primaries, and it would invalidate his 'change' message, the media thinks its a 'dream ticket' as the american media are a bunch of god damn ******** lazy sensationalists), that you appear to have no clue what 'nanotechnology' actually means, that PMC are taking a tremendious amount of criticism and its only the current US administration that thinks they are a good idea at all, that the balkans and south east asia appear stable for the next decade at least and any flare ups would be smothered via the economic influence of the EU and China respectively (plus the balkans at least have far less wealth and miltiary supplies than they used too), and your proposed withdrawel from iraq strategy doesn't seem to match Obamas proposals at all.

But that probably seemed like a lot of effort, and was the reason why I didn't respond until you got a tad prissy.

 

[human-slaughter]

Hmmm, well I didnt realize the Alt. History thread was full of people who cared much about what should happen because of our time line. The point of this thread is to look at what ifs. This is a first post you both are commenting on an undeveloped idea. Lets talk about the candidate, nobody gives a S**t about what the GOP says about Obama except the GOP and Fox News and those who affiliate themselves with the GOP or have already claimed their support for McCain or another non-democratic candidate.

Sure I agree the media is mentally ********, however the people supporting Obama believe they are preaching the love of liberalism.

Nanotechnology I have not even began to elaborate on so how can you even say I have no idea what it is. (This was probably the dumbest thing you said.)

A single PMC is taking the largest brunt of criticism, this being Blackwater USA, however , and I dont know where your from but at least in the USA there is no mention of other even larger PMCs who operate quite freely and away from media. And who says the US needs to support the PMC for it to operate with rebel activity flaring in other parts of the world there will be the need of corrupt leaders to employ the contractors to protect their institutions.

They may appear stable but this is an Alt Hist sorry take your calls for complete realism elsewhere.

Obama's timetable is a 16-Month timeline. My timeline is 12-months or less because of the assumed drop in action in the region and the assumed cooperation of the Iraqi government.

So thank you for explaining his criticism it is helpful in building on the fraction of what i have done so far.

 

[Azale]

Sounds like you can't handle any criticism. If that's the case, take your calls for critiques on your timeline elsewhere.

 

[das]

Technically, this does not even belong here, seeing as it is dealing with the near future (mainly).

 

[silver 2039]

Hmmm, well I didnt realize the Alt. History thread was full of people who cared much about what should happen because of our time line. The point of this thread is to look at what ifs

We happen to like realistic what-if's.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Nanotechnology I have not even began to elaborate on so how can you even say I have no idea what it is. (This was probably the dumbest thing you said.)

Your phrasing of 'nanos' implied discrete active units at a nano-scale, which isn't going to be happening in the next decade at least. But go ahead, elaborate it on it, I'll wait.

nobody gives a S**t about what the GOP says about Obama except the GOP and Fox News and those who affiliate themselves with the GOP or have already claimed their support for McCain or another non-democratic candidate.

Sure I agree the media is mentally ********, however the people supporting Obama believe they are preaching the love of liberalism.

...what? How does that lead to Obama doing the politically moronic thing of having Hillary as VP?

 

[North King]

I can't really find much about Persia's scientific tradition as distinct from that of Babylonia. The culture is good,
though.

I was actually thinking of the Sasanian era for the most part, though I seem to recall some independent scientific development prior to that.

What particularly interests me is the fate of Egypt, because I think that in this world the native 30th dynasty might very well hold on to power. Greek culture still will spread with Greek merchants and Greek mercenaries, but I imagine that it will have much less influence than in OTL (also, there will be no Alexandria, but I think that Navkratis would probably become a very prominent cultural center in its stead, in addition to remaining Egypt's greatest harbour and a center of maritime commerce). The Egyptian renaissance may start anew.

Egypt could indeed grow to new heights, but I think outside of its primary strengths as the ancient world's granary + manpower supplier, it doesn't have much to recommend itself. A power, yes, but not a superpower.

If Greece hadn't gone on to conquer the known world, I would imagine they themselves would tend to be even more disunited than in OTL, which might spur military innovation. While the Greek phalanx is essentially inferior to the Roman legion no matter what the era, I do wonder if resistance would be prolonged...

And with the loss of a lot of the Eastern Mediterranean trade, wouldn't any Persian Empire confined to, say, the limits of Parthia or the Sassanid Eranshahr be significantly less powerful? I'm afraid I don't know how lucrative that was for them as compared to, say, keleuthos bombykike.

Persia is one of the richest regions in the ancient world. It was repeated invasions in the medieval world which started to put it on a downhill course.

That would be interesting. As NK asked, though, what would happen to Makedonia? I personally think that they were a bit more powerful than the Thessalians; tactically, at least, the advantage of the hippeis Thessalikoi is largely negated by the prodromoi and the hetairoi, while the Makedonian phalangial system is superior to anything Thessalia could field. Other Makedonian advantages would be being able to call on the amazing Thraikian rhomphaiaphoroi, some of the best close-combat infantry in history, and the Agrianikoi pelekuphoroi. And economically, Makedonia has a fantastic amount of good mining, control over a lot of lumber and good harbors, and is in a better position to seize control of the Hellespontine trade with the critical Euxine grain ports.

Just a quick suggestion, dachs: translate the names. Not all of us specialize in Ancient Greece.

 

[North King]

...what? How does that lead to Obama doing the politically moronic thing of having Hillary as VP?

Clinton as a VP isn't actually as stupid as some people make it out to be, though I happen to think it's definitely not his best option.

 

[flyingchicken]

While the Greek phalanx is essentially inferior to the Roman legion no matter what the era, I do wonder if resistance would be prolonged...

I feel tension rising. Well, at least I hope it is.


... Anyway, what would the UN be doing in your scenario, human-slaughter?

 

[alex994]

Just a quick suggestion, dachs: translate the names. Not all of us specialize in Ancient Greece.

Thank God! A like-minded person! I AM NOT ALONE ANYMORE

@Human-slaughter, what about the rising casualties in Afghanistan with Al-Qaeda supposedly focusing more and more there instead of Iraq?

 

[North King]

I feel tension rising. Well, at least I hope it is.

Well, the claim of "every era" is probably a bit over the top, to be honest, but as time goes on, the Romans are certainly superior to the Greeks in military matters. The Roman legion is simply more flexible tactically speaking than a Greek phalanx, in more than one sense of the word.

 

[das]

A power, yes, but not a superpower.

Well, definitely. I'm not sure if Egypt could ever have been a superpower (or a world state, if you will), unless you consider the New Kingdom to be close enough.

If Greece hadn't gone on to conquer the known world, I would imagine they themselves would tend to be even more disunited than in OTL, which might spur military innovation.

Actually, in the long term Greece just might emerge united out of the wars of the 4th century (though I agree that they would be more bitter, intense and many-sided than in OTL if Macedonia is unable to dominate as easily as in OTL), though I suppose that even then any unity is going to be shaky. Still, some kind of synthesis between monarchy and symmachy might work if given good circumstances.

Just a quick suggestion, dachs: translate the names.

I'm not sure if there is any point to translating most Greek "unit" names. They are usually left untranslated anyway, so it's easier to look them up this way.

 

[North King]

Well, definitely. I'm not sure if Egypt could ever have been a superpower (or a world state, if you will), unless you consider the New Kingdom to be close enough.

I think it would be, given the extent of civilization during that time. After that, though... I suppose if the Egyptians managed to build on the Ptolemaic navy and combine it with a better-trained land force, they could emerge as a major player. Sans that, though, I can't see it.

Actually, in the long term Greece just might emerge united out of the wars of the 4th century (though I agree that they would be more bitter, intense and many-sided than in OTL if Macedonia is unable to dominate as easily as in OTL), though I suppose that even then any unity is going to be shaky. Still, some kind of synthesis between monarchy and symmachy might work if given good circumstances.

How would it end up united if it didn't even in OTL?

I'm not sure if there is any point to translating most Greek "unit" names. They are usually left untranslated anyway, so it's easier to look them up this way.

By translate, I mean, give an explanation of what they are. Honestly I don't like having to go through Wikipedia every time I encounter a word; it's a lot more comprehensible if explained in text, or even with footnotes.

 

[das]

I suppose if the Egyptians managed to build on the Ptolemaic navy and combine it with a better-trained land force, they could emerge as a major player.

Egypt is a major player by definition, unless consumed by some greater power. I don't see it as becoming anything more than a regional power, though.

How would it end up united if it didn't even in OTL?

Yes, upon due consideration I have to admit that it would probably have to be done from the outside. I'm not sure if Thessaly is up to the task in the long term, so that would leave Epirus, Macedonia or maybe some power from Asia Minor.

 

[human-slaughter]

@Azale: I understand it may see like I am not taking the criticism like I claim I am but I feel I must defend and explain why I wrote what I wrote

@das: Yes you are correct but for all our sakes I hope what I am writing is in fact Alt-Hist lol

@silver 2039: And sometimes we all need a little unrealistic what if.

@North King: Thanks, I agree it isn't such a great idea in my mind and many others but I do believe such a union would bring the Obama skeptics who are still liberal more to his side.

@flyingchicken: Ah the good old UN. Well I would assume with the rise of rebel movements across the more unstable parts of the world there would be a lot more under table dealings with the PMC's and rebels themselves and the UN would become ceremonious.

@alex994: Correct which supports the idea that the surge and American occupation has discouraged the violence in that nation. However the cruel reality of the world is the Al Qaeda may be eliminated, but incarnations of the same Middle Eastern terrorizers will be moving around the ME for who knows how long. And hopefully if in OTL Iraq really does lighten up and Afghanistan turns more into the Iraq of 05 to 07 Obama wont just keep the minimum amount of troops and realize we really need to "win" both wars. (but thats just my war economy speaking)