an abortion thread with no personal attacks

Mundane engagement can be passivity. Behavior has inertia. Humans have widely accepted instincts. You are applying "passivity" too specifically to have much bearing on the truth of behavior. The assumption that a human is going to continue breathing and eating if able is not wooliness of thought. It isn't intellectual malaise to incorporate worldly context into assessments of ethical behavior. It's one of the things that makes relativistic ethics so much fun.
 
I wasn't trying to compare religion and science. I was just saying there's no proof that cells = life, and that certain people give way more value to these cells than to those already living.

I just learned from my wife that the nearby clinic has closed its doors and probably moved, after an 'accidental' fire. Pro-life my ***!
 
Need a confirmation from a mod or at the very least from the OP. and I will .It will even contribute to the discussion if you are brave enough.
 
So, back to the embryo as being morally important.

IF I put teratogens onto an embryo (or fetus) so that I drastically increase the likelihood of severe retardation, a majority of people would agree that this is immoral.

IF I put teratogens onto sperm, allow one of them to fuse with an egg (to form an embryo), is this also immoral? What if the teratogen causes the embryo to be embryonically lethal (i.e., the embryo dies without too many cell divisions)? What if the embryo survives to produce someone with severe retardation?

How can the embryo be the morally important condition, if the sperm is also important (in the same way)?
 
edit: speaking of double-posts, if the embryo is a morally important timepoint, why can I kill a placenta after delivery, but not an identical twin?

(Mods, feel free to delete, this was a double-post, and my 'placenta vs. twins' is a bit tired)
 
Mundane engagement can be passivity. Behavior has inertia. Humans have widely accepted instincts. You are applying "passivity" too specifically to have much bearing on the truth of behavior. The assumption that a human is going to continue breathing and eating if able is not wooliness of thought. It isn't intellectual malaise to incorporate worldly context into assessments of ethical behavior. It's one of the things that makes relativistic ethics so much fun.
I don't really follow your objection. It's true that our day-to-day actions are a form of concious engagement with the world, is it not? They may not be fully self-concious, (and indeed I would tend to say that there are very real limits on the transparency of the subject to itself), but they are concious, they are the actions of an engaged subject and not simply the mechanical plodding of a biological object that by happenstance carries within itself a subject, like a pilot sitting inside a partially-autonomous vehicle. That certain actions are mundane or incompletely self-conscious doesn't change this, it simply locates them within a subjective hierarchy of significance.

Eating meat, to take an obvious if imperfect example, is for the majority of people more mundane than vegetarianism, but that does not imply that eating meat is somehow a more "neutral" lifestyle, it means only that it is familiar. It confuses our impression of our engagement with the world with the engagement itself; an assumption that because intellectual adherence to a certain set of norms is passive, the performance of those norms is itself passive. In reality, both vegetarianism and carnivorous are equally definite forms of engagement with the world, and so the ethical distinction we make between the one and the other cannot be found in this area.

What this amounts to, in relation to the question of a "potential life", is that the alleged potential relies on an assumption of habit which has no justification but the very habitualness of the behaviour in question. It may be true that, as you say, this an assumption which most people considering abortion will make, but that doesn't mean that they are (logically) justified in doing so, that they could not take a more critical approach to their situation. People don't need to be prisoners of habit.

I wasn't trying to compare religion and science. I was just saying there's no proof that cells = life, and that certain people give way more value to these cells than to those already living.
I'm not really sure what you mean, here. If "life" is understood as a certain kind of biological process, for which we can establish shared criteria, then it seems a simple thing indeed to establish whether or not a given entity is alive. Only by conceding a definition of "life" as something immaterial, to be identified not through biology but through metaphysical inquiry, would that claim make much sense, and given that you openly reject the possibility of any such inquiry, I really don't know why you'd want to make that concession. Am I missing something? :huh:
 
Well, I guess I will try to address this more directly then. While I might personally see a developing soul attached to an embryo, I do not base my logic for a secular democracy's public policy solely on my faith. I understand that rational minds disagree here and do not support the typical legislative lobbying of the pro-life agenda.

What I see in an embryo is a developing person. It's certainly human. It isn't sentient as far as science can measure. It is a necessary stage in which we all once were. Just because this human, right now, is mute and lacking intelligence does not, in my mind, justify terminating it before it can develop these traits. It is going to get smarter. It is going to develop all the traits to which we attach secular value and it is going to develop these traits in a hurry. Just like we did. I see human value there. We wouldn't allow the euthanasia of a 20 year-old coma patient if the prognosis was that the individual was likely to wake up in a year. That isn't a cure-all comparison though. I also see the potential conflicts of interest between developing personhood, female rights to one's own body, and fatherhood. Abortion, in the majority of the cases it is performed, makes me tremendously sad.
You're saying that there is potential in the embryo. Nobody denies it. An abortion is something difficult that shouldn't be (and in the overwhelming majority of cases, is not) taken lightly. Few would disagree.

But all this still doesn't challenge the fact that an embryo isn't a person, and as such there is still no argument to want to forbid it.
 
You're saying that there is potential in the embryo. Nobody denies it.
I do, actually. To talk about "potential" is to make a claim regarding possible futures, but if we are certain that a given future shall come to pass- namely, that a woman shall obtain an abortion- then we cannot reasonably entertain contrary outcomes.
 
How can you avoid personal attacks about people supporting infanticide?

Did you read the threat? A lot of people have been doing just fine.
 
How can you avoid personal attacks about people supporting infanticide?
Yeah, that would be difficult.

But we are discussing abortion, feel free to join in and react on any of the positions which have been pushed forward, or perhaps raise an issue of your own. :)

Good luck and happy posting!
 
If it's someone's choice to smoke, drink or take heavy medication, why should everyone have to pay for their choice?
 
If it is their choice to have an abortion, why should everyone have to pay for their choice?
If we agree that they are entitled to that abortion as a condition of their well-being, then we have a collective responsibility to ensure that they have access to it. It's like how in English and Scots law, the losing party of a lawsuit is obliged to pay the legal fees of the winner, because it is held that the winner had a right to bring their case to court/defend themselves, so the opposing party bears the burden of ensuring their ability to do so.
 
That said, I really wouldn't mind if 'at-demand' abortions weren't covered by public health dollars. As much as I disagree with pro-lifers, I can recognise their emotional distress at helping fund abortions. Medically required (or referred) abortions should be covered, though.

The difference between 'elective' and 'non-elective'? Well, I know it's difficult, but when I was younger, I had two moles removed. The doctor decided that one of the moles was elective (and thus not covered by the province) and one of the moles was removed on his recommendation.

Oh, and scientists show (again) that a skin cell is a potential human
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120607122307.htm
 
But where does that end? Do Jehovah's Witness' tax/insurance dollars have to funneled so that they aren't funding blood transfusions? Should birth control not be covered under health plans because Catholics object?
 
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