Anders Breivik declared sane

Bringing back the death penalty is not a discussion on the political agenda. Simply not in the sphere of things that are discussed even in passing. Hasn't been for a long time, will not be in the longest of foreseeable futures, this guy's actions have done nothing to change that.
 
To be honest if capital punishment was re-instated in Norway, it would be a victory for Breivik and his fellow right-wing allies. His intent was to create fear, a sort of "civil-war" between those that share his views and the Muslims and the "liberals" that he views as supportting them.
 
He's not 'criminally insane' (if I've understood that term correctly). So he'll stand trial and won't be locked up in a mental institution, but rather sent to a normal prison to serve his 21 years. Though he'll also be sentenced to 'involuntary commitment' and every fifth year the 'involuntary commitment' will be extended another five years... Most likely he'll do his time in isolation, to keep him protected from the other prisoners.

21 years for murdering... how many, 70 people? Don't you think you legal system is extremely lenient? Out of interest, if he were criminally insane, would it be possible to lock him up for life? Because in that case he should have been declared so.

My personal opinion is that he should be very slowly lowered into an aquarium full of hungry meat-eating piranhas. If that seems too extreme, a pot of boiling oil would also be acceptable.

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As for the attempts by certain people on the far-left to construe Breivik as some sort of a representative of the broader right wing, I find that disgusting and offensive.
 
Whether or not you like to admit it Winner, he is (at least to the public) a representative of the far-right. His lasting "legacy" is to be forever associated with the right-wing in Europe, and his name will be brought up again and again.

Also, I'm not far-left.
 
Whether or not you like to admit it Winner, he is (at least to the public) a representative of the far-right.

No, he's a representative of the homicidal terrorist right - a European version of an Al Qaeda's "operative" (the guys who blow themselves up in buses full of schoolchildren).

The term far-right itself is incorrect and largely useless due to the fact that pretty much any party that says "we don't like more immigration" is automatically lumped in that category. I prefer "populist right-wing" or something along those lines to describe the brand of eurosceptic, anti-immigration, anti-globalization parties that exist in many European countries. There are very few truly "far-right" parties, the sort that openly fraternize with neo-nazis and scum like that.

His lasting "legacy" is to be forever associated with the right-wing in Europe, and his name will be brought up again and again.

By whom? I consider myself centre-right and I am definitely not planning to shoot 77 teenagers to advance my ideology.

Abusing this horrible crime to attack political opponents who had *nothing* to do with Breivik or his ideological views is just a variant of the "debating strategy" proscribed by the Godwin law.

Also, I'm not far-left.

Good, maybe you'll see now why the term "far-something" is problematic.
 
21 years for murdering... how many, 70 people? Don't you think you legal system is extremely lenient? Out of interest, if he were criminally insane, would it be possible to lock him up for life? Because in that case he should have been declared so.

Again, 21 years is not the absolute maximum. The absolute maximum is "21 years, plus indefinite incarceration after that, to be reviewed every few years". The "plus indefinite incarceration" option is pretty rarely used, it is for persons who are considered likely to be dangerous in the long term. Like this guy.

Involuntary commitment for the dangerously insane is never "for life" a priori, it is basically "until the patient is considered cured/no longer dangerous". So it is only "for life" if that never turns out to happen.

Oh, and enough with the revenge porn already. No amount of childishly imaginative descriptions of torture or violence is going to help anything.
 
It's not that his politics were of little importance to him; obviously he took them very seriously. What I meant is that he os a psycopath, and his psycopathy led him to radical politics, not the other way around. That he ended up a far-right psycopath is a IMO merely circumstance and chance; people of that exact mind frame were behind Peru's far-left Sendero Luminoso, for instanve.

That is only half true. The whole story is that there are at least two communities in Europe which wholeheartly embrace violence as a method of politics. I speak of far-right Neonazis and the islamistic Salafists.
Breivik is a psychopath but he found a world of hatred where he could cultivate his worldview. Such structures don't exist on the left side (anymore, at least). So when the question comes to "what could have been done differently" - In Europe we must certainly put more effort in fighting right-wing extremism and we should not waste the money into fighting left-wing extremism as well just for the sake of fairness.
 
No, he's a representative of the homicidal terrorist right - a European version of an Al Qaeda's "operative" (the guys who blow themselves up in buses full of schoolchildren).

He's still a representative of the far-right. His views fall directly in that category.

The term far-right itself is incorrect and largely useless due to the fact that pretty much any party that says "we don't like more immigration" is automatically lumped in that category. I prefer "populist right-wing" or something along those lines to describe the brand of eurosceptic, anti-immigration parties that exist in many European countries. There are very few truly "far-right" parties, the sort that openly fraternize with neo-nazis and scum like that.

He didn't merely just dislike immigration though Winner. As evident by the actual KILLING OF PEOPLE, he wanted to kill those who were Muslim (which he saw as being foreign invaders) and those that "enabled" them (basically anyone not anti-Muslim).

By whom? I consider myself centre-right and I am definitely not planning to shoot 77 teenagers to advance my ideology.

Abusing this horrible crime to attack political opponents who had *nothing* to do with Breivik or his ideological views is just a variant of the Godwin law.

When did i attack my "political opponents"? Quote me doing so in this thread please. Also, I brought up his name in that regard, because he's (currently) the most infamous example of far-right terrorism.

Good, maybe you'll see now why the term "far-something" is problematic.

Except Anders Breivik IS far-right in his ideaology. Seriously all the evidence, his beliefs, the passages, the fact that he went as far as killing those he held in contempt because they didn't share his foul beliefs.
 
This guy does seem to represent a different and newer variety of right-wing extremism than the old-fashioned Nazis [1], it must be said. Noticeably different core values, at least.

[1] I do not like the term "Neonazi" as there is little about those guys that is new when compared to the original Nazis. (Except, I suppose, in ways that give truth to the old saying that history repeats itself twice, the first time as tragedy and the second time as farce.)
 
Again, 21 years is not the absolute maximum. The absolute maximum is "21 years, plus indefinite incarceration after that, to be reviewed every few years". The "plus indefinite incarceration" option is pretty rarely used, it is for persons who are considered likely to be dangerous in the long term. Like this guy.

Involuntary commitment for the dangerously insane is never "for life" a priori, it is basically "until the patient is considered cured/no longer dangerous". So it is only "for life" if that never turns out to happen.

Thanks for the info. I was afraid he'd walk free in 21 years.

Oh, and enough with the revenge porn already. No amount of childishly imaginative descriptions of torture or violence is going to help anything.

There is nothing childish about wishing people like this suffer horribly before they die. It is a very adult thing to feel, I might say.

He's still a representative of the far-right. His views fall directly in that category.

No. If an animal rights activist murdered 70 people to send a message that killing animals for meat and fur is wrong, I doubt he'd be considered a representative of the animal rights movement. If a gay rights advocate impaled 20 evangelical priests to advance his agenda, I doubt we'd see him as a representative of the LGBT movement.

He didn't merely just dislike immigration though Winner. As evident by the actual KILLING OF PEOPLE, he wanted to kill those who were Muslim (which he saw as being foreign invaders) and those that "enabled" them (basically anyone not anti-Muslim).

Which is not what most parties described as "far-right" advocate.

When did i attack my "political opponents"?Quote me doing so in this thread please. Also, I brought up his name in that regard, because he's (currently) the most infamous example of far-right terrorism.

I am not speaking about you specifically.

Except Anders Breivik IS far-right in his ideaology. Seriously all the evidence, his beliefs, the passages, the fact that he went as far as killing those he held in contempt because they didn't share his foul beliefs.

Again, I don't know of any "mainstream far-right" (Traitorfish's term betraying his personal bias) party that would come even close to the kind of extremism Breivik subscribed to.
 
It's not that his politics were of little importance to him; obviously he took them very seriously. What I meant is that he os a psycopath, and his psycopathy led him to radical politics, not the other way around. That he ended up a far-right psycopath is a IMO merely circumstance and chance; people of that exact mind frame were behind Peru's far-left Sendero Luminoso, for instanve.
But, again, isn't that contrary to what the new results appear to be suggesting: that he wasn't simply a maniac, but somebody who undertook these actions within a basically coherent ideological framework? I don't doubt that he has something between his ears that's not put together like it should be, but you could doubtlessly say that about half of Al Qaeda or the Real IRA, and I've never heard anybody suggests that Qutbism or physical force Republicanism are not worthy of consideration in examining their activities.

This guy does seem to represent a different and newer variety of right-wing extremism than the old-fashioned Nazis [1], it must be said. Noticeably different core values, at least.
I'm not so sure. The explicit content of his ideology may be different, but the underlying structures- a narrative of civilisation struggle, a transcend concept of the nation (in his case, a broadly defined "Christian Europe"), a preoccupation with an idealised "man of action", cultural rebirth and redemption through violent struggle- are all key characteristics of interwar fascism. While I'd agree ay that there's enough that sets Breivik apart from traditional fascism to make the label "fascist" or even "neo-fascist" unsuitable, perhaps something like "post-fascism" would not be inappropriate.

Again, I don't know of any "mainstream far-right" (Traitorfish's term betraying his personal bias)...
Could you elaborate on that? I'm not being faectious, I'm genuinely curious as to what fault you find with the term.

...party that would come even close to the kind of extremism Breivik subscribed to.
Of course not, just as the official Communist Parties never came close to the kind of extremism that the Red Brigades or Red Army Faction subscribed to. But that didn't mean that the activities of those groups did not have significant implications for those parties. Something broadly similar applies here.
 
Could you elaborate on that? I'm not being faectious, I'm genuinely curious as to what fault you find with the term.

It's an oxymoron, to begin with.

Of course not, just as the official Communist Parties never came close to the kind of extremism that the Red Brigades or Red Army Faction subscribed to. But that didn't mean that the activities of those groups did not have significant implications for those parties. Something broadly similar applies here.

That's not a very good analogy.

There are political parties that are truly and undeniably on the extremist right - we have one in this country, they're calling themselves the "Workers' Party" (a clear allusion to NSDAP) and their electorate is mostly made of skinheads and other Nazi sympathizers. Their programme included materials calling for a "final solution of the Roma question". Needless to say, the party was banned by the court for being in violation of the constitution.

Then there are populists like the Party for Freedom in the Netherlands, who thrive on votes of protest against the existing situation that leaves many people frustrated and dissatisfied with the current political establishment. They are hardly far-right extremists and lumping them in the same category with the guys I described in the paragraph above makes any reasonable discussion impossible. It's like saying that left-wing populists who promise welfare for everyone and extra taxes for the rich are in principle the same as Red Army Faction. They're not.

Breivik is an extremist even in the true far-right circles. I think most of his buddies would rather go blow up a mosque or a synagogue than shoot white blond blue-eyed teenagers.
 
That is only half true. The whole story is that there are at least two communities in Europe which wholeheartly embrace violence as a method of politics. I speak of far-right Neonazis and the islamistic Salafists.
Breivik is a psychopath but he found a world of hatred where he could cultivate his worldview. Such structures don't exist on the left side (anymore, at least). So when the question comes to "what could have been done differently" - In Europe we must certainly put more effort in fighting right-wing extremism and we should not waste the money into fighting left-wing extremism as well just for the sake of fairness.

As a German, you know very well of the Red Army Faction and other terrorist far-left groups that terrorized innocents until relatively recently. Italy had their Red Brigades.

True, since the collapse of the USSR left-wing extremism in Europe has declined to the point of being a negligible threat. I didn't mean to say that equal effort should be put to fighting right-wing and left-wing extremism; as you correctly say presently the biggest threats in Europe are militant Islam and far-right extremism. And militant Islam is certainly and by far the most deadly, as the attacks on Spain in 2004 prove.

My point was rather that to imagine that apology of violence and terrorism as a means of political action is exclusively or predominantly a far-right thing is completely wrong. Both the far-left and religious extremists are just as prone to that sort of thing. And I think if a guy like Breivik was born in Saudi Arabia he would belong to al-Qaeda; if he was born in Germany a few decades ago he could very well have become a member of the RAF. I am convinced his psycopathy drives his politics, not the other way around.
 
Ah yes, abandon our values and the rule of law for the sake of this one... rectum. I think not.

There is value in keeping murderers secure and comfortable in your luxury Norwegian "prisons"?

Bringing back the death penalty is not a discussion on the political agenda. Simply not in the sphere of things that are discussed even in passing. Hasn't been for a long time, will not be in the longest of foreseeable futures, this guy's actions have done nothing to change that.

That is the same here :(
 
It's an oxymoron, to begin with.
I don't think so. I can certainly see that it's counter-intuitive, hence my putting it in brackets to indicate its provisional nature, but I think it works at least on some levels. Parties like the BNP and PVV participate in the mainstream political discourse, albeit peripherally, and in that sense can be described as participants in, if certainly not representatives of, the political mainstream.

But, either way, I don't really understood why the label expresses a "bias" on my part. Surely, if that was the case, I'd use "mainstream far-right" to describe the Conservative Party, and the BNP as representing something further right still?

That's not a very good analogy.

There are political parties that are truly and undeniably on the extremist right - we have one in this country, they're calling themselves the "Workers' Party" (a clear allusion to NSDAP) and their electorate is mostly made of skinheads and other Nazi sympathizers. Their programme included materials calling for a "final solution of the Roma question". Needless to say, the party was banned by the court for being in violation of the constitution.

Then there are populists like the Party for Freedom in the Netherlands, who thrive on votes of protest against the existing situation that leaves many people frustrated and dissatisfied with the current political establishment. They are hardly far-right extremists and lumping them in the same category with the guys I described in the paragraph above makes any reasonable discussion impossible. It's like saying that left-wing populists who promise welfare for everyone and extra taxes for the rich are in principle the same as Red Army Faction. They're not.

Breivik is an extremist even in the true far-right circles. I think most of his buddies would rather go blow up a mosque or a synagogue than shoot white blond blue-eyed teenagers.
I don't really follow your criticism. I didn't suggest that the PVV were in any sense equivalent to the extreme right- in fact, my original comment seems to hinge on the assumption that they are not- but that they both represent a far-right, anti-immigrant and nationalist politics, and so cannot be understood as representing unrelated bodies of political opinion. That was the purpose of my analogy: the CPI were in neither theory or practice anything like the Red Brigades, and the two actively condemned each other, but they both represented a far-left anti-capitalist and socialist politics, and so the activities of the one had implications for the other, as I'm sure any historian of modern Italy will tell you. Unless you believe that the official CPs of Western Europe were revolutionary firebrands, which isn't a claim which they would make, I don't really understand why you would find fault in the analogy, or at least not without more technical, historical reasons than you seem to offer here.

There is value in keeping murderers secure and comfortable in your luxury Norwegian "prisons"?
There is value in killing people simply because you don't like them?
 
This guy does seem to represent a different and newer variety of right-wing extremism than the old-fashioned Nazis [1], it must be said. Noticeably different core values, at least.
From what I know about him, he represents the "defender of the Western civilization" style, as opposed to the more eclectic "radical anti-globalist" one*. Some more "respectable" Nazi groups seem to drift in such a direction. There was an episode where BNP waved an Israeli flag at a demonstration - fairly Breivikian, considering the latter's cautious support for Israel*.

*Not implying that actual anti-globalists are Nazis... you know what kind of people I'm talking about.

*Also not implying that the Nazis now love Israel all of a sudden. Most (especially "radical anti-globalists") still are, to put it mildly, not huge fans of it.
 
I'm not so sure. The explicit content of his ideology may be different, but the underlying structures- a narrative of civilisation struggle, a transcend concept of the nation (in his case, a broadly defined "Christian Europe"), a preoccupation with an idealised "man of action", cultural rebirth and redemption through violent struggle- are all key characteristics of interwar fascism. While I'd agree ay that there's enough that sets Breivik apart from traditional fascism to make the label "fascist" or even "neo-fascist" unsuitable, perhaps something like "post-fascism" would not be inappropriate.

Eurofascism?
 
As a German, you know very well of the Red Army Faction and other terrorist far-left groups that terrorized innocents until relatively recently. Italy had their Red Brigades.
You'd be surprised how many apologists for the Red Army Faction you could find even among the moderate German left.
 
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