Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

[Gelion]

None of that had happened in 1940 when Russia invaded Estonia in an unprovoked attack

We are discussing Estonian soldiers that were fighting the war of 1941-1945. The ones that were conscripted, but could go home.

Thanks for the compliment.

No bother really. I could provide you with information on Green Cards if you are interested (as a British citizen).

They were mass casualty attacks, very unpleasant but an unfortunate part of war.

Yeah, they were used to frighten populations into submission. Same tactic the Nazis used when they burned 1000's of Soviet villages. No big deal, right?

The American Indians died largely of disease I think. It's not credible to say that America exterminated them - took advantage of their weakness and fought against them, but I don't think there is any legitimacy that they were exterminated.

They still live don't they? Inspite reservations, mass shootings and a series of Indian Wars. No it is not legitimate to say that they were exterminated.

Not the same. America was not the aggressor in those 2 wars [defending vietnam against the north, defending kuwait against Iraq]. Russia launched unprovoked attacks against those three countries. The issue of aggression is central to the right to compensation, morality and an apology.

Starting a war 10 years after the reasons for it are gone can be considered aggression.
South Vietam government was autoritarian and feared by most of its people. While I agree that USA was defending its ally, the interests of the people say they should not have.
Invasions of the three states were done by USSR.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

The communists where going to Estonia to disrupt a public meeting. Try going to any country and telling the boarder gaurd that your reason for visiting is to commit a crime.

It has become a problem that any group that isn't pc in Europe gets attacked by communists. Luckily antifa usually gets whipped.

 

[Gelion]

The communists where going to Estonia to disrupt a public meeting. Try going to any country and telling the boarder gaurd that your reason for visiting is to commit a crime.

I doubt this "meeting" can be taken out of context. The people you describe go to express their opinoin about that meeting. They are not happy with it. Should their voice be denied?

 

[red_elk]

They did. Finland paid 300 million dollars war reparations to Soviet Union after WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Treaties,_1947
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Armistice

That compensation was for joint aggression with Nazis in 1941, and for killing about 1 million of Leningrad civilians in blockade (Finnish troops were involved in encirclement)

That's clearly morally wrong if that's happening, I don't agree with that and they should be arrested. I am talking about combat soldiers who fought in the SS divisions [I think all Estonian divisions came under the command of the SS because of the German command structure]. Those soldiers have the right to respect their dead comrades and frankly it is nobody's business but their own.

And if you re-read my first reply in this thread, I agree that they have right to commemorate their comrades. Like Germans do, without pro-Nazi rallies.

Not the same. America was not the aggressor in those 2 wars [defending vietnam against the north, defending kuwait against Iraq]. Russia launched unprovoked attacks against those three countries. The issue of aggression is central to the right to compensation, morality and an apology.

Of course this analogy is flawed, as all analogies are. I can also ask about second gulf war, attack against Serbia and many other cases. Of course you can find some sort of justification for them all, no doubt. Also if you read Russian history of first half of XX century, you may notice that Finland and Poland were also not an innocent victims.

There is no point in claiming that Soviet regime was evil and murderous and therefore actions against it are justified. Many people consider it as evil and murderous as American one. But only Nazi regime is internationally recognized as criminal, everything else is arguable.

 

[Ayn Rand]

We are discussing Estonian soldiers that were fighting the war of 1941-1945. The ones that were conscripted, but could go home.

Do you mean they could go home by deserting? That's not quite the same as volunteering.

The Estonian soldiers fought in 1941-45, but the background would have been set by the shock of the Russian invasion. I imagine that didn't endear them to Russia or Communism. I doubt that many of them were genuine Nazis, they probably just looked at two bad alternatives and went with the country that hadn't invaded them [Germany].

I'm sure Estonian soldiers on both sides were brave and that it's a tragedy for them as it was for Russia and Germany.

No bother really. I could provide you with information on Green Cards if you are interested (as a British citizen).

Thanks, please do as I am kind of thinking about it.

Yeah, they were used to frighten populations into submission. Same tactic the Nazis used when they burned 1000's of Soviet villages. No big deal, right?

I don't agree with the firebombing of Dresden I think it was a step too far. I think the nuclear attacks on Japan probably saved more Japanese lives than they cost, because the Japanese Nation would have descended into fanatical resistance followed by chaos, starvation and ruin, if it had come to an American invasion.

I don't agree with what the Nazis did to Russia, the Russians are a part of European civilisation and the Nazis were just totally insane.

Starting a war 10 years after the reasons for it are gone can be considered aggression.
South Vietam government was autoritarian and feared by most of its people. While I agree that USA was defending its ally, the interests of the people say they should not have.
Invasions of the three states were done by USSR.

Thanks for conceding the point so gracefully.

Iraq was still under siege, and the sanctions had actually cost the lives of a large number of Iraqis, particularly children. The strategic planners hoped that Iraq would change its government and come to a compromise, which sadly didn't happen.

I think America wanted to change South Vietnam to a viable democracy and leave as soon as possible.

I accept that America had no right creating/supporting a "South Vietnam" but America couldn't leave because the USSR wouldn't leave the North. It wasn't possible to move the country to complete independence because the communists were interfering.

Of course, the Soviet Union invaded Finland and the Baltic States to create a buffer to protect itself. However it was done in a very high-handed and aggressive manner.

 

[Desert-Fox]

There is no point in claiming that Soviet regime was evil and murderous and therefore actions against it are justified. Many people consider it as evil and murderous as American one. But only Nazi regime is internationally recognized as criminal, everything else is arguable.

General Zukov said as "There will be no court against victors" and that says all about this. Also Western-Europe will never understand the Soviet crimes because they had to fought only against Nazis but Eastern-Europe got kicked by Soviets too and for them most cases Nazis were more liberators and Soviets were aggressors. But after WW2 Eastern Europe was silenced and of course "victors" decided to judge only Nazis but not both evil regimes. And now these Anti-Fascist rely on this because West never consider Soviet regime as criminal.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

I doubt this "meeting" can be taken out of context. The people you describe go to express their opinoin about that meeting. They are not happy with it. Should their voice be denied?

Their plan is to riot, attack the meeting, attack people who attended the meeting afterwards and throw molotov cocktails and rocks.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Very selective cut and paste luiz. Thats all anyone needs knowing:

Erkki Johan Bäckman (born 18 May 1971) is a controversial Finnish political author, legal sociologist and criminologist, holding an adjunct professorship in three Finnish universities[1][2].

Bäckman is a nutcase who for some reason takes Russian stance on any matter.

 

[Gelion]

Do you mean they could go home by deserting? That's not quite the same as volunteering.

I will reformulate for clarity's sake:
You claim that Estonians fought with Waffen SS because they saw it as a chance to fight Soviet occupation (correct me if I am wrong). I am not denying that. I say that many Estonians fought with the Red Army out of their own free will because they believed that this was better for them, for Estonia and maybe for huma kind.

Thanks, please do as I am kind of thinking about it.

You should start with this site.

I don't agree with the firebombing of Dresden I think it was a step too far. I think the nuclear attacks on Japan probably saved more Japanese lives than they cost, because the Japanese Nation would have descended into fanatical resistance followed by chaos, starvation and ruin, if it had come to an American invasion.

So the bombing of Dresden was mass murder, not a legal military action? As for the nuclear bombings, they could have been conducted on another site - a military base for example. Still, I assume you treat them as legal military actions, correct?

I don't agree with what the Nazis did to Russia, the Russians are a part of European civilisation and the Nazis were just totally insane.

Which is why a lot of us oppose this gathering.

Thanks for conceding the point so gracefully.

Yeah, I kind of wanted to step in

Iraq was still under siege, and the sanctions had actually cost the lives of a large number of Iraqis, particularly children. The strategic planners hoped that Iraq would change its government and come to a compromise, which sadly didn't happen.

So, the 10 years pause in the war was there so that the "wrong" regime would collapse, correct?

I think America wanted to change South Vietnam to a viable democracy and leave as soon as possible.

IIRC the post war agreement included plans for all-Vietnam elections so that the people themselves would choose what government they want. Heavy propaganda on both sides of the "border' made those plans impossible. I say "democracy" was a great goal, but unrealistic in practice.

I accept that America had no right creating/supporting a "South Vietnam" but America couldn't leave because the USSR wouldn't leave the North. It wasn't possible to move the country to complete independence because the communists were interfering.

Thats called realpolitik and thats exactly why the Baltic States were partitioned between USSR and Nazi Germany. Same could be said for huge colonial empires European nations once had.

Of course, the Soviet Union invaded Finland and the Baltic States to create a buffer to protect itself. However it was done in a very high-handed and aggressive manner.

Indeed, but it was a sign of the times. Velvet revolutions were not yet invented and the four states (and Poland) had very diffult relations with USSR (that came out of mutual atrocities during the Russian Civil War). I'd say history could not have gone any other way.

Their plan is to riot, attack the meeting, attack people who attended the meeting afterwards and throw molotov cocktails and rocks.

What other option do they have since the Estonian government does not listen to their opinions? Regardless of their tactic, do you feel it is right for Estonian government to allow meetings of former SS veterans?

Bäckman is a nutcase who for some reason takes Russian stance on any matter.

As I said, I don't really care about him .

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

What other option do they have since the Estonian government does not listen to their opinions? Regardless of their tactic, do you feel it is right for Estonian government to allow meetings of former SS veterans?

So if the government allows thousands of people to use their constitutional right to honour the people who fought Stalin's terror the best response is to throw molotovs at the police and beat up vetrans?

Who decides who is allowed to hold a public meeting? How will the political correctness commitee work?

 

[amadeus]

From the Freedom in the World report...

Estonia
Civil Liberties: 1 (1 is the highest, 7 is the lowest)
Political Rights: 1
Classified as Free

Russia
Civil Liberties: 5
Political Rights: 6
Classified as Unfree

Conclusion
Estonia = fascism
Russia = democracy

Don't try and reason with neo-Soviet hypernationalists... they are utterly incapable of understanding basic economics or the rights of man.

 

[Gelion]

Don't try and reason with neo-Soviet hypernationalists... they are utterly incapable of understanding basic economics or the rights of man.

From the Freedom in the World report...

Estonia <snip> Classified as Free

Russia <snip> Classified as Unfree

Conclusion
Estonia = fascism
Russia = democracy

I like how you expose your reasoning. Well done, none of us have managed to reach that ^ conclusion! Kudos

 

[Lone Wolf]

Estonia is a democracy with an unpleasant nationalist undertone.

 

[amadeus]

I like how you expose your reasoning. Well done, none of us have managed to reach that ^ conclusion! Kudos

As opposed to your reasoning of WAAARRGGHBL THEY'RE SAYING BAD THINGS AGAINST ALL MIGHTY MOTHER RUSSIA! THEY MUST BE FASCIST CAPITALIST IMPERIALIST WARMONERING RACIST NAZI FASCIST FASCIST NEO-NAZI IMPERIALISTS!

We both know pretty damn well you wouldn't have posted this thread if it wasn't about a Soviet ex-colony.

 

[Gelion]

As opposed to your reasoning of WAAARRGGHBL THEY'RE SAYING BAD THINGS AGAINST ALL MIGHTY MOTHER RUSSIA! THEY MUST BE FASCIST CAPITALIST IMPERIALIST WARMONERING RACIST NAZI FASCIST FASCIST NEO-NAZI IMPERIALISTS!

Nuff' said.

We both know pretty damn well you wouldn't have posted this thread if it wasn't about a Soviet ex-colony.

Its more to do with the war itself. The Holocaust. And what we think is right and wrong.

 

[Yeekim]

I wound not say that. There are some policies that people consider offensive towards them, such as for example glorifying your former enemies and their actions.

The event under question is an annual commemoration of defensive battles fought in Blue Hills (Sinimäed) and has naught to do with glorification of either fashism or nazism. I would like to know, how you arrived to such conclusion. Also, I have no idea why it is constantly described as "parade".

Thats fine, not problem. Tell me this: when does a meeting to remember Nazi victims take place? Is there a national holiday to commemorate thousands of Jews killed by Estonian collaborators?

The Holocaust Day, 27th of January.

Nice. What does Estonian police do to stop neo-nazis to come to these "celebrations" and buying Nazi symbols and litterature?

Well, the Russian border is pretty closely monitored.

P.S. I don't care about Johan Backman. Don't even know who he is.

He is basically Karalysia IRL.

We both know pretty damn well you wouldn't have posted this thread if it wasn't about a Soviet ex-colony.

I must remember to make a thread when Russian press publishes their annual bodycount of its domestic Neo-Nazi victims. Last time they were well in triple digits...

EDIT: I just watched the video.
WTH is this? Especially the text between ~0:20 and 0:40. Is it supposed to be translation of what the speaker who is shown at the same time says?? Well, it has nothing to do with the actual speech.
Anyway, I urge people to look at the video. Dicrepancy between what is said by the reporter and what is actually shown is pretty obvious.

 

[red_elk]

General Zukov said as "There will be no court against victors" and that says all about this. Also Western-Europe will never understand the Soviet crimes because they had to fought only against Nazis but Eastern-Europe got kicked by Soviets too and for them most cases Nazis were more liberators and Soviets were aggressors. But after WW2 Eastern Europe was silenced and of course "victors" decided to judge only Nazis but not both evil regimes. And now these Anti-Fascist rely on this because West never consider Soviet regime as criminal.

For Eastern Europe Nazis were liberators and Soviets aggressors? Hopefully, Western Europe will never understand such "truth".

 

[Camikaze]

unable to cross the border between Estonia and Latvia

I find this very odd. I thought I understood the Schengen Zone. Apparently not.

 

[raketooy]

Just so that you know, Johan Bäckman is universally hated in Finland.

 

[storealex]

The only good thing about anti-fascists is that they oppose fascism. Apart from that, they're an unruly mob, running around in the streets breaking windows and looking for fascists (Police) to fight. I understand why they're kept out.