Ask A Red: The IVth International

Status
Not open for further replies.
How are you guys explaining the decline of unions? Not just in traditional areas - manufacturing, government - but also the complete lack of unions in a lot of new industries? (I've long since thrown my hands up in confusion over the whole thing, since even quite savage job cuts in state government here haven't done much to boost union membership).

ReindeerThistle said:
Mao was not a Maoist, he was a Marxist-Leninist, see my other posts for the M-L perspective
So you see Maoism as an adaption (a tweak if you will) of Marxism-Leninism to the Chinese situation?
 
How are you guys explaining the decline of unions? Not just in traditional areas - manufacturing, government - but also the complete lack of unions in a lot of new industries? (I've long since thrown my hands up in confusion over the whole thing, since even quite savage job cuts in state government here haven't done much to boost union membership).

Well, lucky you, I am a labor organizer. The decline of US unions has little to do with the subjective motivation of labor leaders to be sure. It has, in part, been due to the National labor legislation starting with the 1935 "National Labor Relations Act," which was passed in reaction to 6 General strikes in 1934, including the SF General strike, where for six months, even the police were on strike, the UNIONS (Teamsters, Machinist and longshore workers) ran the city. The NLRA or Wagner Act "allowed" a certain sector of the workforce to organize -- it excluded farm workers and domestic workers, as well as employees of independent contractors. Well, some, liek John L Lewis (NOT a communist) said "Let's do it -- get the unions going and then get tot he unorganized. Use this tactically. He took his industrial unions, raised a treasury and started the CIO.

Well, after WWII, another Red Scare happened and congress passed the Taft-Hartley amendment which outlawed all of the tactics labor used to win in the 1930s. Since 1947, the perentage of workers in unions went down, while in 1970, the actual numbers of unions went down. Unions' hands in the US are tied by labor laws, so that left 70 - 100 million workers untouched by union organizers, legally.

Don't despair, there are unions organizing the growing number of service workers, and there are organizations reaching those who are not organizable unto unions. These organizations lack organizers. That is one of the things do -- train organizers.

So you see Maoism as an adaption (a tweak if you will) of Marxism-Leninism to the Chinese situation?

No, I see "Maosim" as the non-China application of the tactics of the Chinese Revolution.


Why do the Socialist Party, Socialist Workers, Left Front of Something Something etc... keep trying to run a Presidential candidates? It's a waste of time, waste of money and they don't even have complete ballot access. They would be far better served by building local level organizations in the city and state levels, things like alderman positions, assembly even school board.

And while we're on the topic why are there half a dozen tiny left parties in the US? You couldn't fill a phone booth with all of them. Fragmentation is a luxury you can hardly afford.

The 6,000 people that voted for Socialist Workers Presidential candidate, probably some (many?) as a lark, isn't going to help.

FYI: Eugene Debs got a million votes as socialist party candidate when running against Woodrow Wilson in 1916 -- and he got them from JAIL!
(c.f. Labor's Untold StoryBoyer and Morais, UE Publication.

Forgive me Reds, if I might take a crack at this. I'd be interested if you think my hunches are on or off base. I suspect this, and the continued failure by even minor party standards of Communist political efforts in the US comes from:

1) A lack of organizational and political talent. The fragmentation of "New Left" type groups in the US is not a new development, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to approach China, social issues, or organized labor. The kinds of younger Americans who might be interested in far-left political activity have plenty of other groups to chose from, and the types that could provide legitimate political advice, or organizing, would flock to the Greens, or somewhere else. Cheezy is legitimately the only American over the age of 18 that I have ever met, or even really READ about, that unabashedly calls himself a communist.

2) The failure to preach their message outside of a small demographic group. I believe that the majority of American communist voters tend to be whites with access to a university education, just like members in urban green parties, OWS-types, etc. The *actual poor and underclass* has been in lockstep with Democrats for decades, and nobody, not even the better financed greens, has been able to dislodge them.

3) The failure of a coherent way to articulate what a "communist" administration would do for local issues. What does a Communist school board member do, practically speaking, when his other 5 peers are mainstream capitalist leaders? Does a Communist city council member try to nationalize various commercial zoning areas? It would seem that many in the party figured the only practical way to preach that message is to do it nationally, which they can't do without money, leadership, or organizational talent.

downtown, I am impressed. Thank you, by the way, for responding. I would like to ask how you came up with this analysis.

Your point about the lack of political and organizational talent, and lack of getting into a broader demography, while I take personally, is partly true -- but the reasons are as follows:

From the outset there was a lack of a unifying political and organizational structure.

Marx tried this first in Europre with the International Workingmen's Association (whose first act was to congratulate Lincoln in 1864 on his re-election, and which a portion of Lincoln's reply is exerpted in Labor's Untold Story) Marx had gotten together the most disparate grouping you could imagine: Bakuninists Anarchists, Blanquist shoot first and organize later revolutionaries, Prudonnist (workers cooperatives) remnants from the chartist movement. As effective a polemicist and organizer as Marx was, he could not get them all together and the First International was disbanded in 1874.

In the US, we have the peculiar problem in that the Labour movement predates the socialist revolutionary movement. Whereas in Europe, the Union movement came as a result of revolutionary organizing. And CPUSA chief (and traitor) Jay Lovestone called this "American Exceptionalism" and tried to tie CP into the white AFL trade unions, while ignoring the growing industrial movement, which was becoming multicutural. Under Earl Browder's leadership (he switched off with William Z. Foster who is featured in that great Chicago labor film The Killing Floor, see it!) after the Bolshevik Revolution, CP moved into the international spectrum by their support of the USSR, BUT it did not have an domestic program of its own.

Now, along comes a spider.... FDR gets voted in as the Prez and he puts in the New Deal. The country is in crisis and FDR has a plan, so CP flocks to the ranks as well as they flock to the ranks of the emerging CIO and they offer uncritical support of the New Deal and the CIO. Meanwhile, people joined CP in such numbers that they used to rent out Madison Square Garden every saturday nights for party meetings. So, here we have the CP with a domestic program of uncritical support of the bourgeois government, and the international program of uncritical support of the USSR.

Can anyone guess what happens next? Well CP members start getting kicked out of the unions, and then Nazi Germany and the USSR sign the Molotov-Von Ribbetrop pact of non-aggression.

OOPS! CP members started leaving in droves, because while they can stomach support of their own capitalist government, signing a pact with "Hitler," (which, by the way, I would have supported, and many Western European press outlets described as "The Pact that Stopped Hitler!") and that was it -- the entire reason for their being in the Party, as they saw it, was null and void, because if they were in the fight to fight fascism, how could you sign a deal with it.

Stalin knew what he was doing, and it may have saved the USSR from utter destruction, but that is not the debate, here.

When, in 1943 the Communist International disbanded (in order to shut up all the press who were saying that Moscow controlled everything and to remove the last obstacle to getting Churchill and FDR to agree to open a second front in Europe. So, Browder disbanded the Party in the US! Oy, it came back ,but it was not the same

In the meantime, after WWII, when the Congress passed teh Taft-Hartley Amendment to the NLRA, which outlawed Communist leadership i nthe unions, and which John L Lewis of the CIO called "The first savage ugly thrust of Fascism in America."

Well, what was the left to do? CP was decimated by the McCarthy witchhunts and wrote "revolution" right out of its Constitution.

Now, as for the other left parties, they have always been around, but none in the US have been able to launch a successful revolution.... so far.

I think that covers the "inside dope" so to speak, on your first two points, of what is essentially a correct analysis.

RE: #3: The Red Scares shocked people, so the CP said "We are just like you, we have jobs, go to PTA meetings, and pay taxes. It's just that we go to our cell meetings every Saturday night." Well, then, what is so different about that.

Likewise, no two left groups in the US could even agree on a national program.

So, there we are.

The key is for the left to form a united front, and come to a common agreement on practice and political direction. I am not opposed to having many left groups, I say that the more organization, the better. It is the character of these organizations that is the crux.

Lenin said that the urgent task of the movement was agitate and educate the masses to socialist victory, and to not reject any tcatic on prinicple, including work in the unions, parliament, et c. Lenin also said that where comminists were illegal, the communists had to have an illegal apparatus. In this country, you have the right to assemble -- freedom of association, but Lenin also said that where communists were legal, they needed a combination of legal and illegal tactics.

Running someone for office won't cut it.

ace99, hope that helps. downtown, again, good answer.
 
Can someone explain the Stalinist method of....."You, random ethnic group, make me a railroad 100 km's north of you, and stay there."

Why was relocation so crucial in his policies, I also noticed it was mostly done with the Volga Germans, Turkic people of Kazakhstan, and the other stans (Uzbek, Taji, Turkmen, Kyrgyz)?

Well, Stalin literally wrote the Book on the Marxist view of "Nation," in his book Marxism and the National Question. I cannot speak to the relocation question in that context, because when Stalin was Commissar of Nationalities (a job none of the other CC members wanted) he actually revived the local and region national minority culture, who had been subjugated by the Tsars for 300 years. He, himself, was from Georgia, a national minority itself. see Gruber's Soviet Russia Masters the Comintern. The national question is one that all CPs in power have to deal with. In China, e.g, there are over 50 national minorities, and the Chinese government supports and encourages their cultural autonomy. There are some great Chinese films that illustrate this, I just don't remeber their titles. My Long March has a scene where the PLA wins over a Lolo tribe to be able to pass through and recruit some to join them.

In Russia, that is also a sticky situation. I do know that during Stalin's reign as Premier, he spent the years 1933 - 1941 preparing for the Germans. Industry was changing, and the workforce was changing, and I have no doubt that people were uprooted, and that is unfortunate. I was not the one facing the Wehrmacht possibly knocking on my door, so I cannot judge. All I know is that the Marxist position on nation is: that a nation is constituted by people of a similar culture and psychology, with similar economic interests and defined geographical borders. The forming of the Soviet Socialist Republics in 1919 was a step toward keeping national questions in the hands of the Republics. That did not always happen in practice. Witness the murder of the Tsar by the "Ural Soviet" against the orders of the Central Committee (c.f Robert K. Massie Nicholas and Alexandra. It was a CC question that was resolved by a regional government, which was unfortunate, because Lenin thought he could use the Tsar as a bargaining chip in the Civilk War (1919 - 1921)

Answer you question?
 
In Russia, that is also a sticky situation. I do know that during Stalin's reign as Premier, he spent the years 1933 - 1941 preparing for the Germans. Industry was changing, and the workforce was changing, and I have no doubt that people were uprooted, and that is unfortunate. I was not the one facing the Wehrmacht possibly knocking on my door, so I cannot judge.
Why would the Wehrmacht be relevant to the question of ethnic cleansing?
 
Another thread? Kill it with fire!
 
Why would the Wehrmacht be relevant to the question of ethnic cleansing?

Ethnic cleansing is not the question. Were that the case, would there be Khazaks, Uzbeks, et al? This was not NedimNapoleon's question. He was asking about the forced relocation of people. He did not bring up ethic cleansing, which is often a word used by the US to describe any conflict is has an interest in. I can't say relocation's the same, and I can't say that the result was a loss of a culture or nation. I come from the US, forced relocation of the naive population was a modus operandi, and it disgusts me.

Ethnic cleansing was an MO of the Japanese at Nanjing.

However, I am glad you asked about the Wehrmacht. Since 1923, Hitler liad out his program of conquering Russia and ridding the world of Bolshevism. He was not in power in 1926 when the USSR signed the Treaty of Rapallo with the Weimar Republic (Germany). The USSR was able to exchange military information in return for German -- that is, Weimar Republic -- German soldiers to train in Russia. Smart move, as the treaty was still in effect in 1933 when Hitler came to power and started his mobilization. The Red Army officers working with the Wehrmacht could see what they were up against (and vice versa). In 1936, the Russians and German went home, Hitler no longer seeing the need to continue the arrangement, and Germany went to work securing lebensraum "room to live," by retaking the iron and coal-rich portions of western Germany (ceded to France after WWI), taking Austria (1937), Czechoslovakia (1938) and Poland (1939). They were headed east, it seemed, but were not ready and neither were the Russians.

The five years plans that the USSR implemented helped the country make great strides, but there were mistakes (see Anna Louse Strong The Stalin Era and a lot of materials and expertise went to waste. As I indicated, also, many workers were likely (obviously, according to NedimNapoleon) displaced from their homes to work in industry in other regions, or to build transport and communications.

Again, from 1933 on, there loomed the threat of Nazi aggression into the USSR and the Soviets knew this.

I dont think there was evidence of ethnic cleansing. Many Eastern Red Army units had mixed nationalities: Yupiks from Siberia, Turks and Uzbeks, and many were officers.

Does that make sense?

Another thread? Kill it with fire!
Oh, great, you found us! Welcome to the 4th thread.

NB: is that a bulldog in your avatar? Wha' happen' to the Jags?
 
downtown, I am impressed. Thank you, by the way, for responding. I would like to ask how you came up with this analysis.
I've done political work before and have a lot of friends who still work in the industry, and I've been interested in practical ways to get around the two-party system as an intellectual exercise. I'm certainly not a Communist, or much of a 'new-left' type. I'm a standard American Democrat, which probably makes me in the most conservative third of CFC OT.

Running someone for office won't cut it.

That, I suspect, is one of the key reasons this stuff hasn't really caught on.
 
Ethnic cleansing is not the question. Were that the case, would there be Khazaks, Uzbeks, et al?
If that's the standard you use, it's a bit of a contradiction to say that the United States or the Japanese conducted it. If the Japanese conducting ethnic cleansing were the case, would there be any Chinese at all?

The five years plans that the USSR implemented helped the country make great strides, but there were mistakes (see Anna Louse Strong The Stalin Era and a lot of materials and expertise went to waste. As I indicated, also, many workers were likely (obviously, according to NedimNapoleon) displaced from their homes to work in industry in other regions, or to build transport and communications.
But NedimNapoleon was not asking about the displacement of individual workers as a result of industrialization. He was asking about the displacement of entire peoples.
 
If that's the standard you use, it's a bit of a contradiction to say that the United States or the Japanese conducted it. If the Japanese conducting ethnic cleansing were the case, would there be any Chinese at all?

Whoops, tiring day. That didn't even make sense to me. I do not have, nor have I seen documentation on ethnic cleansing, nor official or unoffical accusations of soviet ethnic cleansing. My point about the US and Japan is that these are documented cases of deliberate state murder of native peoples.

But NedimNapoleon was not asking about the displacement of individual workers as a result of industrialization. He was asking about the displacement of enoutire peoples.

He asked:
Can someone explain the Stalinist method of....."You, random ethnic group, make me a railroad 100 km's north of you, and stay there."

Why was relocation so crucial in his policies, I also noticed it was mostly done with the Volga Germans, Turkic people of Kazakhstan, and the other stans (Uzbek, Taji, Turkmen, Kyrgyz)?
I gave NedimNapoleon the bona fide of his argument, and explained what I knew. Now I see I should have asked more questions. What time period are we talking about? Stalin was Commissar of Nationalities from 1918 until 1924. Stalin was also Premier, General Secretary of the Party and Chairman of the Central Committee from 1924 untl his death in 1953.

I said I was not familiar with this, and I KNOW Bolshevik History -- so then, when did this happen, how many people and what were the consequences.

And, please, Park, explain how does "movement" equate to ethnic cleansing? You have to examine these things in a context. The Yugoslavian Partisans moved 200,000 Serbian civilians out of the liberated zones when the Nazis were closing in during WWII in order to keep the civilians from being murdered or enslaved. This is just an example.
 
First question. Why am I not approved... and Bast is? :p
 
You ask too many questions? ;)

Mao was not a Maoist, he was a Marxist-Leninist

That's a bit of an overstatement. Mao wasn't much of a reader; apparently the only Communist literature he digested was a summing up of Marxism-Leninism's quintessentials by... Stalin.

Ethnic cleansing was an MO of the Japanese at Nanjing.

That's a nonsensical statement: it would imply the Japanese would like to have cleared all of Nanjing of Chinese and refilled it with Japanese. That's not quite what happened at the Nanjing Massacre.
 
Ethnic cleansing is not the question. Were that the case, would there be Khazaks, Uzbeks, et al? This was not NedimNapoleon's question. He was asking about the forced relocation of people. He did not bring up ethic cleansing, which is often a word used by the US to describe any conflict is has an interest in. I can't say relocation's the same, and I can't say that the result was a loss of a culture or nation.
Forced relocation is ethnic cleansing. Physically eliminating a people with the intent of destroying them, completely or in large part, is genocide. Massacring civilians with no immediate intent of destroying a people, like the Nanjing Massacre, is atrocity. What the USSR did to the Koreans in the Russian Far East, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Meskhetian Turks, Pontic Greeks was ethnic cleansing. The national autonomies of these people, if they had them before, were liquidated. Initial conditions of deportations were very rough, which lead to a short-term mortality increase among the deported.

The Soviet authorities' reasons was that these peoples were either likely to collaborate with the invaders or already massively collaborated with them. As a rule, the latter accusation was partially true. Thus, the USSR acted according to the principle of ethnic collective responsibility.

A good comparison in US history is the Japanese Internment during WWII. Since the Soviets didn't allow these ethnicities to return immediately post-war, what the USSR did was a degree harsher.
An example of ethnic cleansing is Palestinian Arabs during the first Arab-Israeli war, though that was more ad hoc and not all Palestinians were made to flee.
See also deportations of Greeks and Turks after the 1919-1921 Greek-Turkish war, which was essentially a mutual ethnic cleansing agreement on part of Greece and Turkey.
 
The Soviet authorities' reasons was that these peoples were either likely to collaborate with the invaders or already massively collaborated with them. As a rule, the latter accusation was partially true.
In case of Koreans, the additional reason was removing large group of East-Asians out of the region, to make Japanese agents much easier to detect.
 
I consider forced relocation of a population as ethnic cleansing because the said ethnicity looses its cultural and territorial integrity, it also serves as a way of destroying an ethnic group by moving them into an area thats alien, whose people dont speak the same language....mostly to the Kazakhs...and thus the "alien" ethnicity is to be assimilated into the new cultural group....

My question was more along the lines "What was the economic and political gain". We've stated the political gain as being, control and to prevent collaboration with invaders. I'm also interested in the economic gain of displacing large portions of population. In Yugoslavia portions of the population were deported from Kosovo or Central Serbia to Vojvodina, a much more agriculturally rich area, because of the demand for labor, abandoned farmland and it was done in a time of hunger (right after WW2). To a centralized, planned economy like Stalins or even Titos, is the overall gain of relocation good enough?
 
That's a bit of an overstatement. Mao wasn't much of a reader; apparently the only Communist literature he digested was a summing up of Marxism-Leninism's quintessentials by... Stalin.

No, but "reader s are not leaders," "Leader are readers," and Mao got plenty out of what he was reading and, in fact, things like Hegel were not available to the Chinese reader -- but Lui Shao Chi points out in How to be a Good Communist that th eduty of a communist was to be the "Best pupils of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin." Mao was categorically not a "reader," true, but was a revolutionary fighter who built a clandestine party (CPC) with an open end to the masses (PLA, mutual benefit societies) and THAT is what makes him a Marxist-Leninist.

Please don't argue this point. This is a question and answer forum, and since I am a Marxist-Leninist, and I have defined M-L in my posts, you are simply being the Devil's advocate. Read Stalin's Foundations of Leninism, a very good primer on Marxism-Leninism, by the way, for whatconstitutes this ideology. Read Bruce Franklin's Introduction to The Essential Stalin.

That's a nonsensical statement: it would imply the Japanese would like to have cleared all of Nanjing of Chinese and refilled it with Japanese. That's not quite what happened at the Nanjing Massacre.
I will not argue this point, either, since both the KMT and the Japanese covered up the massacre. However, the motivation of the Nanjing Massacre notwithstanding, it was more a racialist policy of aggression than a (purported) strategy of national defense.

Stay on topic, too, Jeelen, NedimNapoleon wanted to know about the economic and political benefits of such a policy, which I speak to below.


Forced relocation is ethnic cleansing. Physically eliminating a people with the intent of destroying them, completely or in large part, is genocide. Massacring civilians with no immediate intent of destroying a people, like the Nanjing Massacre, is atrocity. What the USSR did to the Koreans in the Russian Far East, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Meskhetian Turks, Pontic Greeks was ethnic cleansing. The national autonomies of these people, if they had them before, were liquidated. Initial conditions of deportations were very rough, which lead to a short-term mortality increase among the deported.

The Soviet authorities' reasons was that these peoples were either likely to collaborate with the invaders or already massively collaborated with them. As a rule, the latter accusation was partially true. Thus, the USSR acted according to the principle of ethnic collective responsibility.

A good comparison in US history is the Japanese Internment during WWII. Since the Soviets didn't allow these ethnicities to return immediately post-war, what the USSR did was a degree harsher.
An example of ethnic cleansing is Palestinian Arabs during the first Arab-Israeli war, though that was more ad hoc and not all Palestinians were made to flee.
See also deportations of Greeks and Turks after the 1919-1921 Greek-Turkish war, which was essentially a mutual ethnic cleansing agreement on part of Greece and Turkey.

Let us first agree on a basis for discussion:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/194242/ethnic-cleansing
ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

The term ethnic cleansing, a literal translation of the Serbo-Croatian phrase etnicko ciscenje, was widely employed in the 1990s (though the term first appeared earlier) to describe the brutal treatment of various civilian groups in the conflicts that erupted upon the disintegration of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia...

So, Lone Wolf, I get where you are coming from but your end of the discussion belongs in this forum:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=490423

As I will point out below, it is arguable that the relocation of these peoples was necessarily for the intent of creating an ethnically homogenous geographic area -- since they already WERE ethnically homogenous. That is what makes it a war crime.

I consider forced relocation of a population as ethnic cleansing because the said ethnicity looses its cultural and territorial integrity, it also serves as a way of destroying an ethnic group by moving them into an area thats alien, whose people dont speak the same language....mostly to the Kazakhs...and thus the "alien" ethnicity is to be assimilated into the new cultural group....

As above, IF the purpose is to create a ethnically homogenous geographic area, I agree with your proposition. DO Define your arguments. I cannot say, as Britannica does, that the USSR did this to make the area ethnically homogenous -- after all, it already was. Likely,%2
 
As I will point out below, it is arguable that the relocation of these peoples was necessarily for the intent of creating an ethnically homogenous geographic area -- since they already WERE ethnically homogenous.
Ethnically mixed-up Crimea certainly became more homogenously Russian after the Greeks and the Tatars were deported. Likewise with Volga and the Far East that weren't that homogenous to begin with.

Regardless, forced deportations of people because of their nationality is ethnic cleansing. You'd be engaging in some obstructive legalism if you want to claim that it isn't.

or the relocation of the Native Americans from the east coast to the plains which resulted in the economic gain of a handful of wealthy oligarchs via the acquisition of Native-owned businesses.
There's nothing in the definition that suggests "economic gain of wealthy oligarchs" as a necessary attribute of ethnic cleansing. The mutual exchange that followed after the Greek-Turkish war was also primarily political in nature.

And the Japanese Internment was also done "as a defensive measure" in context of Japanese attack in the USA, also being primarily political. The US government had decided that the internment is necessary for the US's safety. Had Japan and the USA stayed at peace, the Internment wouldn't have happened.

But yeah, despite the rate of labor exploitation in "special settlements" for the deported being fairly high, the reasons for deportations were political, not economic.
 
Lone Wolf said:
Ethnically mixed-up Crimea certainly became more homogenously Russian after the Greeks and the Tatars were deported. Likewise with Volga and the Far East that weren't that homogenous to begin with.

Regardless, forced deportations of people because of their nationality is ethnic cleansing. You'd be engaging in some obstructive legalism if you want to claim that it isn't.

There's nothing in the definition that suggests "economic gain of wealthy oligarchs" as a necessary attribute of ethnic cleansing. The mutual exchange that followed after the Greek-Turkish war was also primarily political in nature.

But not as a unilateral policy of socialist nations, which is my point, but thank you for pointing that out.

And the Japanese Internment was also done "as a defensive measure" in context of Japanese attack in the USA, also being primarily political. The US government had decided that the internment is necessary for the US's safety. Had Japan and the USA stayed at peace, the Internment wouldn't have happened.

A more dubious motivation on the part of the US . The Japanese who lost their land, IF they got ther land back, got it back only after 40 years of fighting in the courts. No one Japanese soldier landed in the contiguous United States during the war. However, the USSR had 7 million axis troops rolling down their land.

But yeah, despite the rate of labor exploitation in "special settlements" for the deported being fairly high, the reasons for deportations were political, not economic.

As I indicated, it is not unilateral socialist economic policy. But at the time a wartime measure and, incidentallly, the USSR beat the Nazis, who killed ar more people in the USSR.
 
I belive Cheezy stated earlier that Marx said all nations would get to socialism in their own way, and I think maybe even slightly different kinds of socialism. So does nations still exist in socialism/communism?

And what's really the difference between socialism and communsim?
 
Lohrenswald said:
I belive Cheezy stated earlier that Marx said all nations would get to socialism in their own way, and I think maybe even slightly different kinds of socialism. So does nations still exist in socialism/communism?

Yes, the concept of "Nation," which Stalin literally wrote the book on in 1912, is not compromised under socialism. The USSR, in fact, was many nations, which is why each "state" was called a Soviet sociaist Republic.".

A nation is comprised of a people of similar psychological, cultural and economic make-up within defined geographical boundaries. Marxist-Leninists make exception for the Jews, who, while they now have and need a geographically defined area in Palestine, DID NOT have such a place in 1912.

And what's really the difference between socialism and communsim?

The short answer is contained within their defining characteristics:
If you accept that under Capitalism, you have class antagonisms (99% v. The 1% that OWS pointed out.) Then under socialism you still have class anatagonisms, it's just the appaatus of government favors the working class, et al.

Socialism: if you work, you eat -- I.e. the guarantee of a livelihood is ensured via work. The means of production are socially owned and the government exploits class antagonism in favor of the working class. The social ownership of productive property does not happen overnight, and individuals do run businesses. Look at China, she has billionaires, but she also lifted 400 million people out poverty.

Communism: of each accoing to ability, to each according to need. We have never seen communism in the manner I a describing, since it is a stage of development coming after socialism. But the idea of. Government is a gov't of things, not people, as the process of sociaization eliminates the contradictions between working and wealthy classes.

Lenin describes this in The State and Revolution (1917)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom