Ask A Red: The IVth International

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mouthwash is not a communist, and not permitted to answer questions in this thread. If you wish to discuss things with him, please do so in a separate forum. If you wish to ask a red this question, then please direct your question to one of us.

No, but I think it's funny how similar it was to the emotionally-reasoned drivel communists usually spout (that's not a jab at you, just at socialists in general). I was trolling. You actually took that as an answer?

Moderator Action: Trolling is not permitted. Please avoid this thread in the future unless you have a legitimate question to ask. If you continue to troll this thread a short ban will be in order.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Trolling is not permitted, especially in the Chamber. I'm not allowed to answer questions in this thread but even I know that.

Moderator Action: OK, let's move on everyone. Thanks.
 
Long-time lurker in these threads, and I'm always one to appreciate serious commentary on misunderstood socio-economic-political systems.

Awhile back, I read Philip Dray's There Is Power in a Union, which gave some overview of the history of labor organization in the United States from its inception to the major strikes, the political action and campaigns, and its ultimate repression. My curiosity was piqued by the discussion of Boyer's Labor's Untold Story on the early pages of this thread. Are the reds in this thread familiar with both of the works, and if so could you give me some general background on the differences between how Dray approaches the subject as compared to Boyer? More broadly, what are the general trends or prejudices you observe amongst the popular authors on labor and socialist history in the US context?
 
Antilogic said:
Long-time lurker in these threads, and I'm always one to appreciate serious commentary on misunderstood socio-economic-political systems.

Awhile back, I read Philip Dray's There Is Power in a Union, which gave some overview of the history of labor organization in the United States from its inception to the major strikes, the political action and campaigns, and its ultimate repression. My curiosity was piqued by the discussion of Boyer's Labor's Untold Story on the early pages of this thread. Are the reds in this thread familiar with both of the works, and if so could you give me some general background on the differences between how Dray approaches the subject as compared to Boyer? More broadly, what are the general trends or prejudices you observe amongst the popular authors on labor and socialist history in the US context?

Thanks for the query, Antilogic. I am first out of the shoot and currently on a mobile, so I'll acknowledge the query and respond more in depth later.

I am not familiar with Dray's work, and while I have read Labor's Untold Story a half dozen times, I do not concur with the final analysis of Labor's Untold Story in that the New Deal was "Triumph" -- because Boyer and Morais wrote that book before LMRDA AND LMRDA II, which ban communists and conviced felons from union leadership. However, it is the most concise history.

As for commie versions of the Labor Movemen, I go with Philip Foner's History of the Labor Movement in the United states -- a five-volume set that I have and use as reference. Unfortunately, I have not read any other non-commie labor histories.

I am certain Cheezy the Whiz has a lot to say, as that is an area of his expertise.
 
What is the best way of educating the masses of what real communism is? For example. soviet Russia was not actually communist based on what you all have been saying, yet many Americans seem to think that it actually is.

What plans do reds have to help the masses differentiate between fact and fiction on these issues?
 
@ ReindeerThistle: This is an interesting article I found:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arc...r-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/?pagination=false

It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive. Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hitler were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. The total figure for the entire Stalinist period is likely between two million and three million. The Great Terror and other shooting actions killed no more than a million people, probably a bit fewer. The largest human catastrophe of Stalinism was the famine of 1930–1933, in which more than five million people died.

Of those who starved, the 3.3 million or so inhabitants of Soviet Ukraine who died in 1932 and 1933 were victims of a deliberate killing policy related to nationality. In early 1930, Stalin had announced his intention to “liquidate” prosperous peasants (“kulaks”) as a class so that the state could control agriculture and use capital extracted from the countryside to build industry. Tens of thousands of people were shot by Soviet state police and hundreds of thousands deported. Those who remained lost their land and often went hungry as the state requisitioned food for export. The first victims of starvation were the nomads of Soviet Kazakhstan, where about 1.3 million people died. The famine spread to Soviet Russia and peaked in Soviet Ukraine. Stalin requisitioned grain in Soviet Ukraine knowing that such a policy would kill millions. Blaming Ukrainians for the failure of his own policy, he ordered a series of measures—such as sealing the borders of that Soviet republic—that ensured mass death.

So apparently perhaps Stalin wasn't quite the monster that most Americans during the Cold War thought. But I can't help thinking that even if the majority of people left the gulags alive, still, being imprisoned in a gulag isn't exactly a picnic itself. I suppose it could be argued that the American prison system is perhaps along the lines of a gulag system for the very poor. And what Stalin killed of his own people, American Presidents have perhaps inflicted similar casualties on various outside "enemies". I don't know which is worse, killing your own people or killing someone elses. I guess it's killing either way you look at it. So perhaps Stalin is ultimately little better nor worse than say, George Bush, if the article cited above is accurate?

Another question for ReindeerThistle: You say that the purges saved the USSR but that you are not in favor of capital punishment. If there were a revolution in the USA and a true communist leadership came into power, would you be in favor of imprisoning those who pose a threat to the revolution?

Also what type of people pose a threat to the revolution? Would you say that a person who dissented against the communist leadership is OK so long as they do not seek any kind of political power within the Party? You also say "reformers" are among those who posed a threat. What exactly do you mean by "reformer"? Do you mean, for instance, a person who is simply trying to preserve capitalism by making "reforms" to it, rather than being a true "revolutionary"?

EDIT: @ Other "reds" in this thread: What are some of your opinions/views on Stalin? I'd particularly like to hear from Cheezy the Wiz and Traitorfish among others. Do you see it such that Stalin was largely misunderstood or over "villainized" by the West during the Cold War? Was he perhaps on to something in his writings and deeds? I don't mean this to be a troll to lure you into saying something just to be attacked but it is just unusual to me to hear anything that favorable about Stalin, even from "reds". I guess to most Americans it would be like hearing someone try to incorporate Hitler favorably into a conversation. The knee-jerk reaction is perhaps to just roll one's eyes and just walk away or else proceed to denounce the proponent of Stalin and chide him/her for his or her moral errors. Do you think perhaps as history progresses there will be more serious and sympathetic evaluation of Stalin and the USSR under his leadership?
 
The 1930'ies famine in Ukraine was partially a result of Soviet economic policies (with actual drought being the primary reason), but it was not a deliberate genocide of Ukrainians.

If we subtract this article's writer "3,3 million killed Ukrainians" from his figure of six, his estimate is fairly reasonable if we include stuff like excess death due to bad conditions in labour camps and during deportations (and I think we should include them).

Of course, it goes without saying that these so-called "victims" were really Troskyite-Bukharinite-Nazi-Polish-Japanese conspirators, who wanted to destroy the USSR:gripe:
 
The 1930'ies famine in Ukraine was partially a result of Soviet economic policies (with actual drought being the primary reason), but it was not a deliberate genocide of Ukrainians.

If we subtract this article's writer "3,3 million killed Ukrainians" from his figure of six, his estimate is fairly reasonable if we include stuff like excess death due to bad conditions in labour camps and during deportations (and I think we should include them).

Of course, it goes without saying that these so-called "victims" were really Troskyite-Bukharinite-Nazi-Polish-Japanese conspirators, who wanted to destroy the USSR:gripe:

Was there a motive at the time to kill the Ukrainians? No country (even a totalitarian one) commits genocide because they simply feel like killing people.
 
No country (even a totalitarian one) commits genocide because they simply feel like killing people.
Well, there was no genocide, though there was a famine exacerbated by bad government policies.
 
Well, there was no genocide, though there was a famine exacerbated by bad government policies.

Was there a motive? I would argue that a deliberate killing is entirely out of the question if there wasn't any, because states (according to realist thought) are inherently rational actors.
 
The usual suggested rationale is "suppressing Ukrainian nationalism". However, it's dubious - nobody throws around accusations of suppressing some ideological movement when it comes to the famine in Kazakhstan. On areas it affected, the famine hit Ukrainians and Russians alike.
 
Long-time lurker in these threads, and I'm always one to appreciate serious commentary on misunderstood socio-economic-political systems.

:hatsoff: Glad to be of service! My pleasure is to teach.

Awhile back, I read Philip Dray's There Is Power in a Union, which gave some overview of the history of labor organization in the United States from its inception to the major strikes, the political action and campaigns, and its ultimate repression. My curiosity was piqued by the discussion of Boyer's Labor's Untold Story on the early pages of this thread. Are the reds in this thread familiar with both of the works, and if so could you give me some general background on the differences between how Dray approaches the subject as compared to Boyer? More broadly, what are the general trends or prejudices you observe amongst the popular authors on labor and socialist history in the US context?

Thanks for the query, Antilogic. I am first out of the shoot and currently on a mobile, so I'll acknowledge the query and respond more in depth later.

I am not familiar with Dray's work, and while I have read Labor's Untold Story a half dozen times, I do not concur with the final analysis of Labor's Untold Story in that the New Deal was "Triumph" -- because Boyer and Morais wrote that book before LMRDA AND LMRDA II, which ban communists and conviced felons from union leadership. However, it is the most concise history.

As for commie versions of the Labor Movemen, I go with Philip Foner's History of the Labor Movement in the United states -- a five-volume set that I have and use as reference. Unfortunately, I have not read any other non-commie labor histories.

I am certain Cheezy the Whiz has a lot to say, as that is an area of his expertise.

Unfortunately, my labor history comes from two works: A History of American Labor by Joseph G. Rayback, and Labor in America by Melvyn Dubovsky and Foster Rhea Dulles. I am not familiar with either work you have mentioned, Antilogic.

Incidentally, I think Inspector Cribb is the man to seek out for this question, as his historical training is in labor history, particularly in the Victorian era. I'll see if I can flush him out for some response.
 
The usual suggested rationale is "suppressing Ukrainian nationalism". However, it's dubious - nobody throws around accusations of suppressing some ideological movement when it comes to the famine in Kazakhstan. On areas it affected, the famine hit Ukrainians and Russians alike.

There are plenty of other ways to suppress cultural animosities or nationalist breakaway groups than just killing a lot of people.
 
The usual suggested rationale is "suppressing Ukrainian nationalism". However, it's dubious - nobody throws around accusations of suppressing some ideological movement when it comes to the famine in Kazakhstan. On areas it affected, the famine hit Ukrainians and Russians alike.

I've heard it mentioned that it was more of an attempt to liquidate the kulaks as a class, is that particularly more credible?
 
EDIT: @ Other "reds" in this thread: What are some of your opinions/views on Stalin? I'd particularly like to hear from Cheezy the Wiz and Traitorfish among others.

My opinion of Stalin is multifold.

First, he was one of the most capable statesmen in history, and an extremely impressive person. He rose from the absolute barest of poverty, born into an abusive family and a terrible childhood. He first sought the Georgian Orthodox priesthood, but later turned to the communist party, which he worked his way up the ranks of to become a prominent editor of Pravda before the Revolution, and political commissar to a cavalry regiment during the Civil War, and the to a division during the Polish-Soviet War. He then was elected head of the Communist Party, and jockeyed his way through throes of adversaries to become of such high standing that he was able to destroy party democracy and cement his power through what was left of that democracy by filling staff with people loyal to him. He led the country through economic and social upheaval such as had never before been seen in history, and then through the most dangerous period to Russians in their history, the Second World War, when their foe quite literally sought their absolute extinction. Even the Mongols did not pursue that end. He then navigated the post-war peace to create security for Russia such as had never existed before.

It is not particularly productive to engage in counterfactual postulations, and we cannot know how any of this might have unfolded had Stalin not been at the helm. Perhaps it might have gone better, perhaps it might have gone worse. We know, for example, that opponents of Socialism in One Country sought the internationalist end. Perhaps they might have antagonized the West in such a way that either the Soviets went to war, or were invaded, before they were capable of dealing with the imperialist threat, and the Revolution's gains were smothered? Perhaps industrialization might have been slower and the Soviets would not have been ready in June 1941? Who knows. I have my opinions, but they are just that. The fact is the Stalin led these things to success. Of course, these things were mostly not his ideas, they were stolen from other people, so it's not as if the Five Year Plans, or forced collectivization, or many other things would most definitely not have happened had Stalin not been head honcho.

However, I also think Stalin did more to harm the future of the USSR than anyone else. Even if we postulate that all that he did was necessary, what we are left with in May 1953 is a communist party full of people completely and utterly afraid to think for themselves. This unimaginative generation proved unable to continue the Permanent Revolutionary trend forward, and continue to guide the Soviet economy through the capitalist phase toward socialism. They all thought in the same way they had learned was safe: which was what happened in the 1930s. And so they continued to act as if they were in that time, even though that was no longer appropriate for their socio-economic situation. All too few people were able to think outside the tiny box they had become accustomed to, most notably Khrushchev. I am firmly convinced that had his reforms been faithfully enforced, and had they not been undone by Brezhnev and the power behind his throne, then things might have gone much better for them through the 70s and 80s, and the troubles of those times might have been avoided. Maybe even the forces that led to dissolution. But that didn't happen, The Reformer was forced into retirement by people unable or unwilling to think for themselves, and that is a situation that Stalin created.

I also, of course, must speak about the deportations and purges. As I have said before, purges have a purpose. A purge, contrary to popular connotation, is not a mass execution of dissidents. It is the discharge from an organization of unwanted elements. There is no question that purges needed to happen in the 1930s. Lots of people had risen to power during the Civil War and NEP who were not communists, and who bore no allegiance to socialism, who could have easily become imperialist agents. They were not politically reliable, and should have been removed from their posts. But did they deserve to be executed or sent to Siberia, and their families too? Absolutely not. And there were quite obviously a great many people who were good communists and good people who met grisly ends in those years. To be a student of Russian history, and to be a champion of the October Revolution, and see so many of the people who made the Revolution, and the Soviet state, be discarded like so much rubbish by that which they had worked so tirelessly to create, is heartbreaking. In fact, as a communist, to hear people defend such actions in my own party, is terrifying. And the deportations are indefensible.

So overall, I think Stalin did more harm than good. There is unquestionably very much good that he did, and that he presided over, but as I have said above, most of that were not things which only Stalin could have gotten done, in only the way that he did it. And as I have shown, his policies and style of rule created long-lasting structural problems which may very well have led to the end of the USSR decades later, and which even during his own time placed the USSR in very precarious positions at times. I think the worst crime of all, however, is the betrayal of one's friends, and even if all else had succeeded, the fact that he destroyed his comrades to do it is unforgivable, and as I said, an active deterrent toward joining the communist movement, and something that lurks in the back of my mind always, as I see people today rush to defend every ounce of his existence.

I think Stalin is best understood as a unique historical persona, whose persona ought to stay historical. I do not think anyone should seek to emulate Stalin any more than I think anyone should seek to emulate Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan, even though one might marvel at their incredible achievements and their lives.
 
There are plenty of other ways to suppress cultural animosities or nationalist breakaway groups than just killing a lot of people.

Once again, it is not your purview to answer questions in this thread, or to respond to questions, or to post your personal comments or opinions.
 
Once again, it is not your purview to answer questions in this thread, or to respond to questions, or to post your personal comments or opinions.

So, not only can I not respond to questions about communism (which, judging by the purpose this thread was created for, seems reasonable), but apparently you have the power to enforce bans on people you don't like for even commenting on things that are not applicable to communism? Or even asking (yes, a mere question) on whether the Soviets had a motive to kill the Ukrainians? Trolling might not be constructive here, but when you start trying to anesthetize the membership through oppressively strict enforcement of some arbitrary protocol, I start to think that something might not be right here.
 
So, not only can I not respond to questions about communism (which, judging by the purpose this thread was created for, seems reasonable), but apparently you have the power to enforce bans on people you don't like for even commenting on things that are not applicable to communism? Or even asking (yes, a mere question) on whether the Soviets had a motive to kill the Ukrainians? Trolling might not be constructive here, but when you start trying to anesthetize the membership through oppressively strict enforcement of some arbitrary protocol, I start to think that something might not be right here.

It is not an arbitrary protocol, it is how all the "Ask a Blank" threads have traditionally worked on this forum. There are a handful of posters who associate with a particular Blank, who are then authorized to respond to questions from the rest of us who are curious about Blank. These threads are intended for us posters to be able to interview people we would not ordinarily meet and to receive unfiltered responses from them. Debate, snark, trolling, or whatever else you want to add into the list belong in separate threads.



EDIT: I also want to say I appreciate the early responses on the question of labor history writing. I checked the copyrights on the book series ReindeerThistle mentioned and it considerably predates the single-volume edition I read (Dray published in 2010). What I'm trying to figure out was whether the more mainstream popular histories of labor significantly diverge from the redder takes on the subject, or if this is a field where there is some consensus.
 
It is not an arbitrary protocol, it is how all the "Ask a Blank" threads have traditionally worked on this forum. There are a handful of posters who associate with a particular Blank, who are then authorized to respond to questions from the rest of us who are curious about Blank. These threads are intended for us posters to be able to interview people we would not ordinarily meet and to receive unfiltered responses from them. Debate, snark, trolling, or whatever else you want to add into the list belong in separate threads.

Haven't I just pointed out that I asked an actual question?
 
I don't think Cheezy was objecting to the questions you asked, just some of the other posts. And then you did admit above that you were trolling. That probably didn't help your cause, although I still think your reply made in jest was pretty well stated for a "non-red". Maybe you have a little bit of "red" in you after all. :lol:

EDIT: Sorry for the digression. I'll return to the topic by saying, thank you, Cheezy, et al., for answering my quesitons so far. I think your reply regarding Stalin was a very good one and seems very reasonbly well thought out. :hatsoff:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom