Ask A Red: The IVth International

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Well, like superior authorities to prevent bullying, racial discrimination, etc.

The short answer is that if you create a system where bullies and profiteers stand out and can be identified and brought to justice, such things like bullying can be dealt with by society in a way that benefits society as a whole.

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Today I encountered a Strasserist for the first time. I think we should begin a discussion around this lunacy. I expect PKH has a lot to say about this. Do any Reds?

An old Red friend of mine once said about anyone who emulates Nazism in any way: they are more to be pitied than feared. He once saw a talk show with a concentration camp survivor and two neo-nazis (American). And when the talk show host asked the old concentration camp survivor what he thought Hitler would think if he were alive today, the survivor said "He wouldn't be talking the crap these people are talking. He would be talking about the economy, where it's going, the bankruptcy of the government and the need for some law and order..."

Sound familiar?

Think what you want, but if you touch members of the class I ally myself with [proletariat], do harm, or intend to do harm to it or its class allies, you are my class enemy. You can call it what you want, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and it's floating in water, it's dinner. a duck.

Strasserists are to be pitied more than feared. The guys who closed 49 Chicago public schools, while opening private charter schools and giving billions of dollars a year to corporations instead -- they are to be feared.
 
We can always go on about the gulag. :D
 
The hatchet, Tak, remember the hatchet.
I can't ever forget it, it's stuck in my back.

Anyways. How, supposing we humans achieved this 'communism', would we prevent a new synoecism from taking place?
 
I can't ever forget it, it's stuck in my back.

Anyways. How, supposing we humans achieved this 'communism', would we prevent a new synoecism from taking place?
Speaking as the "Resident Marxist-Leninist" I think we'll cross that bridge when we come to it -- if it's even an issue.

Cuba, a slightly more homogeneous people than, say, the Chinese, have never had to deal with it. China deals with its national minorities and autonomous regions by letting them flourish -- without letting them run wild.

Let's first get rid of the oppressive State, then install socialism, and we'll see how it goes from there.


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An old Red friend of mine once said about anyone who emulates Nazism in any way: they are more to be pitied than feared.
What about Nazi-emulating movements that have a non-negligible political weight, like the Golden Dawn? It's not like they abstain from talking about "the bankruptcy of the government and the need for some law and order" anyway.
 
What about Nazi-emulating movements that have a non-negligible political weight, like the Golden Dawn? It's not like they abstain from talking about "the bankruptcy of the government and the need for some law and order" anyway.

Right, exactly. According to comrade of minr, who has 5 relatives in the Greek Communist Party, the appeal of Golden Dawn to a broad base of the workers is more their economic criticism -- and their pandering to the xenophobic tendencies an entrenched and defensive working class often is led into -- than their emulation of the nazis.

Greece is currently in a pre-fascist condition, like in the 1950s. See Costa-Gavras' brilliant film Z, where this is illustrated. There was a similar fascist group featured, whose working class members mainly joined because that's how you got jobs.
 
Greece is currently in a pre-fascist condition, like in the 1950s. See Costa-Gavras' brilliant film Z, where this is illustrated. There was a similar fascist group featured, whose working class members mainly joined because that's how you got jobs.

So you'll think it's very likely, or even certain, that Greece is going to become Fascist? Unless you guys manage to achieve dismantling capitalism on time, of course.
 
So you'll think it's very likely, or even certain, that Greece is going to become Fascist? Unless you guys manage to achieve dismantling capitalism on time, of course.

Yeah, well, as demonstrated in "Z" fascism can resist pre-fascist attempts to dislodge it. Fascism relies on opportunism, and in the short term, the Golden Dawn program of a job for everyone, 34 euros a day and "Greece for Greeks first" has more appeal than "dictatorship of the proletariat." Golden Dawn has 17% of the parliament seats, as opposed to 5% in the possession of the communists. So, long row to hoe, you know.

The best thing for Greece would be for the US to have a revolution.

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Sorry if this has been asked before. Can you call a political and economic system socialist when workers councils and therefore local democracy is dismantled? (I am talking about the post-revolution period after 1920) If workers are not really in power (i.e. do not govern themselves) and just follow the orders of central committee and 5 years development plan is this still socialism? In what ways is this state-capitalist economic system different from other state capitalist systems such as US state-capitalism?
 
Sorry if this has been asked before. Can you call a political and economic system socialist when workers councils and therefore local democracy is dismantled? (I am talking about the post-revolution period after 1920)

I do not.

If workers are not really in power (i.e. do not govern themselves) and just follow the orders of central committee and 5 years development plan is this still socialism? In what ways is this state-capitalist economic system different from other state capitalist systems such as US state-capitalism?

Well for one, I think such state capitalist systems as the Soviet system are better than capitalist capitalist systems. The precise structure of the formally planned system in the USSR (and thus the basic model for nearly all extant socialist countries) is sub-optimal for planned economies, but it's functional. More importantly, its goal is far more noble than that in capitalist economies, free-market or heavily planned. The goal, though presently unrealized, is to manage an economy where things that are needed are produced, instead of things that can potentially be sold for private profit. The goals and needs of society come before the goals and needs of the individual producers. They are obviously not irrelevant, but the greater utility of products is decided by practicality and applicability, not merely the ability to pawn off on an unsuspecting consumer. Further, a planned economy has a goal. They have the capacity to undertake enormous projects and think in the long-term. Capitalist countries cannot do this, because of the volatility of markets, and because it is private capitalists who decide what gets built and what does not get built. Society's progress under capitalism is nearly wholly dependent upon the whims of the capitalist planners, who are only motivated by what returns a profit to them, and not what society needs or humanity requires. I don't trust that system to do what's right, or what's necessary, and I don't think it's right that a few private individuals should get to decide the path and progress of humanity, most of all those who are only concerned with what they can get out doing it. So I would take a planned state capitalist economy any day of the week over a free market.

This is not to say that the Soviet system was perfect. Galbraith noted in The New Industrial State the comparison between the functioning [and the atrophy] of the Soviet planned economy with "old-school" capitalist enterprises like the Ford Motor Company before Henry Ford died. In both systems, the sole decision-maker was at the top, directing from above the myriad functions of the organization, and through whom all such decisions were made. But the problem is, once an organization gets so big, and contains so many moving parts and so many new technical things such that one person cannot possibly have the required expertise in all of the relevant things, this decision-making model becomes cumbersome and the organization actually suffers because of it. Since Ford, later in life, insisted on maintaining personal control in spite of this growing necessity for more experts than himself weighing in on things, his company heavily suffered because of it. Competitor companies were putting far more trust in their low and mid-level managers, who operated in committee-driven teams of experts in different fields, making decisions about production democratically. This greatly increased both efficiency and efficacy.

Likewise, GosPlan was like Henry Ford; unable to be an expert in every field that required expert-level input in production, and too far from the production process itself to be of practical use. It became cumbersome and unwieldy, and production and quality suffered because of it. The Soviet planned economy could have worked a lot better if these state-owned enterprises put more power into the hands of the workers and managers themselves, allowing them to control production and inform GosPlan about its needs, and not the other way around. That, I think, was their path forward to true socialism, and I do not understand why they did not take it. I think, perhaps, it might have been a fear of departing from Stalin's programme after he died, but I really cannot prove that right now.
 
Speaking as the "Resident Marxist-Leninist" I think we'll cross that bridge when we come to it -- if it's even an issue.
Somethign for which you don't have an answer!
ReindeerThistle said:
Cuba, a slightly more homogeneous people than, say, the Chinese, have never had to deal with it. China deals with its national minorities and autonomous regions by letting them flourish -- without letting them run wild.
That's just a blatant lie, and it's dishonest of you.

By Cheezy's definition posted just above, China's system is state capitalism. But not communism. And saying that China lets its minorities flourish ought to shame you.
ReindeerThistle said:
Let's first get rid of the oppressive State, then install socialism, and we'll see how it goes from there.
:huh: So the plan is 'let's wing it'?
 
By Cheezy's definition posted just above, China's system is state capitalism. But not communism. And saying that China lets its minorities flourish ought to shame you.

We've already had this argument, he and I, many times. Having it again won't solve anything. We agree on the way forward for our country, which is all that is important.

:huh: So the plan is 'let's wing it'?

Pretty much. A lot will be decided by the masses themselves, it does not behoove us to decide the course of a revolution beforehand, or to give definite shape to the society afterward, until we are there. We have principles that guide us, and that guide the revolutionary proletariat, and with those we can approximate expectations, but to do any more is utopianism, and we have worked very hard to leave that unproductive phase of socialist thinking behind.
 
Besides, even Luxembourg understood that an educated, militant workforce was the prerequisite to a workers government. Those who profess to have a plan for after the seizure of power are using historicism, versus dialectical materialism.

The issues and leadership of the revolution wil arise from the revolution itself.

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I thought we'd already agreed on capitalism being a gigantic cock-up.
 
I thought that might be reflective of the fact that no ideology is prescient.
 
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