[RD] Ask a Theologian V

Basically it sounds like the Bible is condoning slavery.

Thats a tough one for me - hearing a prophet tell slaves to be good slaves doesn't inspire much of a "praise the lord" attitude. It might be Jesus was being pragmatic... He didn't want to encourage tax or slave revolts because they had little chance of success and people will get massacred. But the OT God? Yeah, he liked slavery - he enslaved the first man and his track record got a whole lot worse.
 
Or is the Bible not so bad as one might think? I mean how can any God worth worshiping condone slavery, presumably with the full knowledge of what effect it had on the victims and everyone involved?

One should probably keep in mind that for most of human history slavery was considered perfectly normal. So it would be quite odd to find something against that institution in any pre-19th century holy book.
 
Hi Plotinus,

My attention was drawn recently to Ephesians 6 where it says:



I apologize if this has been brought up before but I didn't see it listed in the prior discussions...

Basically it sounds like the Bible is condoning slavery. My question is, as a people who now understand the horrible effects of slavery, is there any reason why we as conscientious citizens of the world shouldn't throw out the Bible as a morally reprehensible book? Maybe just keep it around as an interesting historical piece along side the Egyptian Book of the Dead or something? I realize that generations have grown up and grown old centering their lives around it and it would be a crushing blow to many to have the rug pulled out from under them. But doesn't the fact remain that the Bible is an immoral book? Shouldn't future generations be saved from making the same mistake of reading, believing and centering their lives around it?

Or is the Bible not so bad as one might think? I mean how can any God worth worshiping condone slavery, presumably with the full knowledge of what effect it had on the victims and everyone involved?

NOTE: I saw where it was discussed whether or not Jesus approved of slavery but are we to really take any of the Abrahamic religions seriously anymore given all the bloodshed and strife associated and apparently condoned in their books? I mean, as a white person in the US, I can't imagine any other moral reaction I should have to such a passage.

Thanks and sorry for a semi-rant/questions.

One problem is that you are viewing slavery based on what happened a few centuries ago and saying that is how slavery was done in every situation, but the reality and the history of slavery is far different. If you read Romans 1:1 Paul describes himself as a slave of Jesus Christ, so being in such a situation isn't like the African slave trade.

But the fact remains that the end of the modern western slave trade was ended by Christians because they knew we had no right to have dominion of fellow humans. Christianity is the reason we don't have slavery, or that it is extremely restricted in the west and harsh penalties are given to those who do enslave people.
 
I think the first point is pretty fair: in the Roman world, the sort of slaves who had a really miserable lives were in silver mines in Spain and Greece, and wouldn't have had much chance to hear Jesus preaching. There are a good few instances from literature of free people saying that they envy the slaves of the rich - at least they get fed, housed and generally looked after, which is more than happened for most people. I suppose it depends on whether you expect the Bible to dispense objective, timeless morality.
 
But the fact remains that the end of the modern western slave trade was ended by Christians because they knew we had no right to have dominion of fellow humans. Christianity is the reason we don't have slavery, or that it is extremely restricted in the west and harsh penalties are given to those who do enslave people.

Spoken like a British-cultured person, of course. I wonder what you'd have said if you were American.
 
Christianity is the reason we don't have slavery, or that it is extremely restricted in the west and harsh penalties are given to those who do enslave people.

If it was the reason, why didn't the slavery end when Christianity was adopted?

The real reason might have to do with Christian trends of thought, but it can't be Christianity in itself.
 
There were also, somewhat embarrassingly, two so-called Great Awakenings of Christianity in the United States, the second of which overlapped nicely with and yet seemed to ignore efforts in Britain to ban the slave trade: the leader of the first actually supported slavery and became a slave-holder after his preaching career had begun. Slavery persisted in the USA for several decades after either, and was regularly defended on Christian religious grounds.
 
I thought the abolishment of slavery had almost everything to do with ideas that funneled their way through society due to the Enlightenment, not due to Jesus.

No. Too much of the push came from Quakers for it to even be considered the most important. Jesus really was the primary motive force.

This is not to say that it was unimportant. The rational argument against slavery was indeed from the Enlightenment. Jefferson included anti-slavey language in the first draft of the Declaration, which was outright cribbed from Hume and Locke. Cassius Marcellus Clay (the boxer Muhammed Ali was named after him), used Enlightenment economic theory to convince slave owners that slavery was not the wisest approach. In many ways, he was more effective than Congress.

J
 
Surely Hume and Locke, and the notion of 'Rights of Man' (which became human rights) are absolutely essential to the movement as it actually developed. The great slogan of English abolitionism was 'am I not a man and brother?': the basic idea that underpins this relies on the conception of humans as born equal and imbued with certain rights, which Christianity quite happily rolled along for several centuries without.

Incidentally, the overwhelming majority of New England's whalers were Quakers, but I don't remember much in the Bible about spearing whales.
 
You're viewing this from an American perspective. Slavery did get abolished in Europe as a result of Christianity, from late antiquity into the early Middle Ages. The eradication of slavery can be pretty closely mapped to the spread of Christianity, which is why slavery within Europe was more or less history by the end of the first millennium.

Whether this had anything directly to do with Jesus or the Bible is another question, of course, but for whatever reason, Christians came to regard slavery as incompatible with Christianity, and they did this in pre-modern times.

I know less about modern slavery. However, it's worth pointing out that not only did key Enlightenment figures such as John Locke actually work in the slave trade, but slightly later key Enlightenment figures such as Voltaire, Hume, and Kant developed extreme (for their day, not to mention for ours) racist views about non-Europeans, and about Africans in particular, which can hardly have been conducive to the abolition of slavery, and which helped to create an intellectual basis for the imperialism and colonialism of Africans by Europeans that happened in the following century. Modern "biological" racism really stemmed from these figures, who were extensively quoted by nineteenth-century racist anthropologists, and from the polygenesis theory, which was popular at the time among Enlightenment intellectuals partly because it contradicted the Bible. (That's one issue where it turned out that traditional Christianity was right and anti-Christian rationalism was not only wrong but morally very dubious.) So my point here is that one shouldn't make out that the Enlightenment sages were all on the side of right on these matters. On the contrary, the Enlightenment provided the intellectual justification for the age of colonialism.

On the original question of what people should make of those passages in the Bible that endorse slavery, not to mention other morally dubious bits, all I can say is that that's something people have to work out for themselves. Personally I'd say that the fact that the Bible says such things seems to be a pretty good reason for not taking it as some kind of monolithic source of morality. However, that doesn't mean it's worthless. People forget that the Bible is not a single text but a collection of all sorts of different stuff. The fact that the author of Ephesians (who passes himself off as St Paul, but isn't) seems to endorse slavery might tell you all you need to know about the author of Ephesians (and perhaps of those who take Ephesians to be morally regulatory), but I don't see why that should colour your view of (say) the author of Matthew, or of Isaiah, or whatever.

It seems to me that pretty much all Christians regard some bits of the Bible as morally regulatory and other bits as "contextual", i.e. relics of their time not to be taken as binding today. Some of them are even capable of making quite artificial distinctions between Old Testament laws they like and others that they don't - e.g. I've encountered Christians who claim that there's a "moral Law", which is binding, and a "ritual Law", which isn't, despite the absence of any such distinction in the Bible itself (and indeed the book of Galatians, the argument of which is that you can't cherry-pick the Law). The more honest liberal approach is to see the various books of the Bible simply as people's attempts to understand the divine and moral realms, with varying degrees of success. The author of Ephesians was wrong about slavery, as far as we can tell, but he might have got a few other things right, and perhaps other biblical authors did better on this matter, e.g. Isaiah 61:1.
 
It seems to me that pretty much all Christians regard some bits of the Bible as morally regulatory and other bits as "contextual", i.e. relics of their time not to be taken as binding today. Some of them are even capable of making quite artificial distinctions between Old Testament laws they like and others that they don't - e.g. I've encountered Christians who claim that there's a "moral Law", which is binding, and a "ritual Law", which isn't, despite the absence of any such distinction in the Bible itself (and indeed the book of Galatians, the argument of which is that you can't cherry-pick the Law).

There's been at least one on this very forum, helpfully allowing them to maintain "Biblical" conservative views, whilst still living a modern lifestyle.
 
Christians very early on came to the conclusion that it was wrong for a Christian to hold a fellow Christian as a slave. They still often considered it acceptable for non-Christian masters to enslave Christians and for Christians masters to enslave non-Christians.

Christian masters would however have a duty to treat their slaves well and a duty to preach the gospel to all of them. They were expected to free any slaves that chose to convert and welcome them as beloved brothers, as Paul asked Philemon to do for Onesimus.

Paedobaptism becoming the norm meant that masters were expected to baptize and educate all their slaves' children as Christians, and so could not continue to hold families of slaves for multiple generations. The master would become his slaves' children's godfather, which during the middle ages was often considered even more important than blood relations. They would have considerable obligations to help provide for slaves' children but no right to compel them to work.

The institution of slavery is hard to maintain for long when masters cannot breed their own human chattel but must rely on buying prisoners of war from distant lands and mus often free those too.

Once a region was fully Christianized, there was not much room left for the practice of slavery to continue.


Contact with the Islamic world however brought slavery back. It started on a very small scale during the Crusades, and continued with the exploration of the coasts of West Africa.

Eventually it came to be commonly held that Muslims and Jews could be enslaved by Christians because they carried on a genetic guilt for their ancestors rejecting Jesus after having ample opportunities to hear the gospel. Islamic slaves did not convert at high rates. Those who did convert to Christianity were sometimes welcomed as brothers and freed, but as the pressure to convert became greater the sincerity of their conversions came into great doubt and it became less and less likely that they would be liberated.

European involvement in the African slave trade first started before the discovery of America, when they needed workers for the sugar plantations they founded on islands closer to the eastern side of the Atlantic. Such plantations, like later American colonies, were justified as ways to raise funds for further crusades, while trying to provide an alternative source of luxuries that would otherwise have to be bought from Muslim countries. At first they only wanted Muslim as slaves, which Muslim slavers (who did not have equal qualms about enslaving their coreligionists) were often eager to sell them. Buying a Christian slave from a Muslim dealer would be considered completely outrageous.

Even enslaving Heathens from cultures were Jesus was unknown was considered quite scandalous. Queen Isabel and King Ferdinand were appalled to learn that Columbus had enslaved the natives of Hispaniola. Those who had never even had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ were likened to the noble pagans of antiquity, including great philosophers like Plato and Aristotle as well as the generation of gentiles that became the early Church Fathers after welcoming the gospel that most the Jews has spurned.
 
The more honest liberal approach is to see the various books of the Bible simply as people's attempts to understand the divine and moral realms, with varying degrees of success.

Can you point to a book or section of the Bible where it is most likely that the author "got it right", though (meaning we can truly see something so powerful as to be plainly the result of divine inspiration)? Or what do you think is the least controversial part of the Bible? You mention Matthew, here's a website that seems to throw a lot of muck at Matthew, at least the parts regarding the Sermon on the Mount.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_mount

To me maybe the problem is that the Bible is too often NOT taken as "attempts to understand the divine and moral realms with varying degrees of success." It IS taken as somehow "monolithic" or "sacred" in nature (maybe because the authors really seem to ACTIVELY TRY to portray it that way), more correct than even contemporary writings on topics of ethics and moral theory. Some people seem to still look at the Bible as though disregarding it is a blasphemy against God. There are places in it which seem to be pretty harsh on "disbelievers". That doesn't seem very good to me prima facie. Isn't it ultimately like a person reading the Book of the Dead and thinking that s/he needs to worship Osiris or be condemned in the netherworld? Or maybe it's like reading Plato's Republic and thinking that there is a perfect form of a chair somewhere. Wouldn't it be better to encourage people to look to more contemporary sources for guidance?
 
The author of Ephesians was wrong about slavery, as far as we can tell, but he might have got a few other things right, and perhaps other biblical authors did better on this matter, e.g. Isaiah 61:1.

The quote supporting slavery doesn't seem that heinous. A slave in a pre-modern economy, who was not born into slavery (was enslaved due to debt, or was a prisoner of war) and was treated humanely isn't in the same league as racial chattel slavery.

Also, I don't want to seem pushy or ungrateful or anything, but you missed my question on Teilhard de Chardin. :shifty:
 
In some senses, to contemporary American eyes, I think it could be considered a bit "heinous". I don't think I could look a black person in the face and even bring up the topic of slavery without categorically denouncing it in the next breath, let alone say something like slaves should obey their masters as Ephesians seems to. It's a very touchy subject I think.
 
In some senses, to contemporary American eyes, I think it could be considered a bit "heinous". I don't think I could look a black person in the face and even bring up the topic of slavery without categorically denouncing it in the next breath, let alone say something like slaves should obey their masters as Ephesians seems to. It's a very touchy subject I think.

Imagine that rape was considered moral and legally sanctioned until about fifty years ago. Is the statement in the Bible about being fruitful and multiplying therefore evil?
 
Imagine that rape was considered moral and legally sanctioned until about fifty years ago. Is the statement in the Bible about being fruitful and multiplying therefore evil?

If the Bible said, "women, cooperate with those who rape you", I think it would. Be fruitful and multiply doesn't directly reference rape. It doesn't necessarily imply rape either.
 
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