Brexit Thread III - How to instantly polarise your country without even trying

[Silurian]

What the the EU means by freedom of movement is the right for EU state
nationals to settle in other member states and demand the same status as
to employment opportunities, public housing and benefits as their own nationals.

As the great majority of UK citizens do not wish to settle elsewhere in the EU, being
able to do so without a permit or visa is only a trivial benefit for a minority of UK citizens.

Large numbers of people do want to retire to Spain etc.

If they can no longer go there they will have to stay in the UK.
Older people use more medical services, Spain is better for their health.
So they will stay in the UK and eat some of the £350m/ week.

 

[Akka]

The UK also has a fairly low foreign-born population in general, only about 12% or so, which is about middling for the OECD. The whole "swamped" thing is pretty much imagined.

I don't really get this, though.
How is a full one eight of your population being "foreign-born" not being pretty huge ? Especially as you consider full integration requires several generations, so that "not fully integrated" population is quite higher than that.
I'd say it's the OECD average which is abnormally high.

 

[Arwon]

That's a deeply troubling take tbh

 

[EnglishEdward]

Large numbers of people do want to retire to Spain etc.

If they can no longer go there they will have to stay in the UK.
Older people use more medical services, Spain is better for their health.
So they will stay in the UK and eat some of the £350m/ week.

Do you think that the Spaniards look after therm for free?

Yes, they could retire and stay in the UK or go elsewhere in the world.

One of the reasons they go to Spain is because the UK government
increases their UK old age pension by the triple lock formula, there
is no such increase if they were to go to Australia or Florida etc.

There is simply no reason why the great majority of people living in
the UK should just surrender their sovereignty to being ruled as a
colony of a continental european state merely for the convenience of
those who have already decided to desert the United Kingdom.

 

[Arakhor]

There is simply no reason why the great majority of people living in the UK should just surrender their sovereignty to being ruled as a colony of a continental european state merely for the convenience of those who have already decided to desert the United Kingdom.

If that was the full and entirely accurate point of it all, then I'd agree. Obviously, it's neither of those.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Of course, anyone under 18 or those living abroad for more than 15 years didn't even get a vote in the referendum. I understand that there has to be a cut-off point somewhere, but perhaps disenfranchising your teenagers and those who are likely to be directly affected by a Leave result is not the fairest idea.

Yes because obviously letting children vote is a great idea.

 

[Akka]

That's a deeply troubling take tbh

No, that's just basic logic about how groups work.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Key question is: which privileges/benefits of EU membership is the actually UK prepared to give up in connection with "Brexit that means Brexit"?
Looking from here, the answer seems to be "none".

This begs the question as to what are the privileges/benefits of EU membership to the UK?

Your pro EU team here on this thread has had 24 hours to identify the privileges/benefits
the UK is giving up; and so far only Silurian has been able to come up with any;

(a) taking up jobs without needing a visa; and
(b) retiring to Spain without needing to apply for a visa

attempts by others to queer the debate by throwing in loaded terms
like "dirty foreigners" and "swamped" really don't impress me.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Medical treatment in the EU without having to pay
Free trade in goods and services
EU laws protecting our health, environment, food etc
Ofc silly idiots that we are we think opting out of the Working Time Directive and still having to use passports when travelling to/from Europe are good things but those were benefits available to us

 

[Senethro]

Your pro EU team here on this thread has had 24 hours to identify the privileges/benefits
the UK is giving up; and so far only Silurian has been able to come up with any;

Who asked this? Who set the time limit?

And why do you get to ignore my question 36 hours ago about the benefits of leaving with no deal?

(a) taking up jobs without needing a visa; and
(b) retiring to Spain without needing to apply for a visa

attempts by others to queer the debate by throwing in loaded terms
like "dirty foreigners" and "swamped" really don't impress me.

What debate? You avoided the question then posted some more blather where you claim special knowledge of the mind of the british people, but actually just insert your own brand of bollocks into what they supposedly think.

I mocked it a bit because thats apparently the only way to get a response, but also because I'm suspicious that you're an ideologue that can only see Britishness in opposition to other identities.

 

[FriendlyFire]

This begs the question as to what are the privileges/benefits of EU membership to the UK?

Your pro EU team here on this thread has had 24 hours to identify the privileges/benefits
the UK is giving up; and so far only Silurian has been able to come up with any;

(a) taking up jobs without needing a visa; and
(b) retiring to Spain without needing to apply for a visa

attempts by others to queer the debate by throwing in loaded terms
like "dirty foreigners" and "swamped" really don't impress me.

a) Why didnt the UK have a tempoary Ban on Poland and Romania immigrants like the Germany and the Rest of the EU
b) Why dont you just change the welfare benefits like the Germany and the Rest of the EU
c) If you want access to the EU common market your going to have accept as the weaker economy give concession to the large economy. Its just the way the world works
d) If you going to Hard brexit you should probably start planning for it. Id imagine the US trade war is going to be exhibit A in what happens when you dont plan thing through

 

[Senethro]

Yes because obviously letting children vote is a great idea.

Come on Manfred, you're a UK citizen. Have an opinion of your own here in this thread. Don't just be a pedant about dictionary definitions or reach for the lowest of hanging sarcasms. Express something.

 

[Yeekim]

This begs the question as to what are the privileges/benefits of EU membership to the UK?

If one believes there aren't any then there is no need for any kind of deal, is there?

Of course, access to common market feels like a benefit looking from this side, but hey.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Medical treatment in the EU without having to pay

It is not free, as I understand it either the customer pays, their insurance company pays or the EU states recharge the NHS.

Free trade in goods and services

In my opinion, the benefits of free trade are greatly overrated. It simply means that those countries with the
more efficient operators knock out their competitors and/or the capitalists with the largest wallets buy them up
until they become oligo-monopolists. And the single market in services is a joke. There are still many barriers.

EU laws protecting our health, environment, food etc

The UK can and has passed plenty of laws on all of these. We don't need a nanny EU. Many EU laws are EU protectionism.
For instance the water I drink is treated with chlorine so I don't mind eating USA chickens washed with chlorinated water.

Ofc silly idiots that we are we think opting out of the Working Time Directive

I don't know who you work for. But there are very many UK employers whose attitude is you work the hours I say or I will
find some one else who will. And they will do exactly that. And their Bulgarian/Latvian staff etc won't question that either. After a
while most people realise that it is not a good idea to even mention the WTD there as they will be the first to let go in a downturn.

and still having to use passports when travelling to/from Europe are good things but those were benefits available to us

We in the UK still have to use passports, even as members of the EU.

And in practice one can not easily book flights, even internal flights within the UK, with most airlines without having a passport.

 

[Arakhor]

Yes because obviously letting children vote is a great idea.

We let them have sex and we used to let them smoke. We even let 17-year-old children drive.

 

[AmazonQueen]

It is not free, as I understand it either the customer pays, their insurance company pays or the EU states recharge the NHS.

But you don't have to pay again like you would in say the US

In my opinion, the benefits of free trade are greatly overrated. It simply means that those countries with the
more efficient operators knock out their competitors and/or the capitalists with the largest wallets buy them up
until they become oligo-monopolists. And the single market in services is a joke. There are still many barriers.

Most exporting businesses would disagree with you. We run a trade surplus with the EU, mostly due to services. French banks are salivating at our exit.

The UK can and has passed plenty of laws on all of these. We don't need a nanny EU. Many EU laws are EU protectionism.
For instance the water I drink is treated with chlorine so I don't mind eating USA chickens washed with chlorinated water.

On things like air quality we do need the EU (and the ECJ to force our government to actually enforce the rules it signs up to).

I hope you're looking forward to the GM crops and hormone and antibiotic stuffed meat the US wants to sell us as part of a free trade deal with it.

I don't know who you work for. But there are very many UK employers whose attitude is you work the hours I say or I will
find some one else who will. And they will do exactly that. And their Bulgarian/Latvian staff etc won't question that either. After a
while most people realise that it is not a good idea to even mention the WTD there as they will be the first to let go in a downturn.

Which is why it needs to be properly enforced.

We in the UK still have to use passports, even as members of the EU.

And in practice one can not easily book flights, even internal flights within the UK, with most airlines without having a passport.

Nobodies fault but our own.

 

[Hrothbern]

See below article from the Guardian.
Will the transition period, now incl 2019 and 2020, be extended with another two years ?
I understand that the govn, the OBR, has planned to pay 9 billion Euro per year in 2019-2020
With two more years transition, while still paying 9 billion per year.... Raab, May can say "hey... we never paid that 39 Billion"

Raab suggests UK will stop its £39bn payment to EU if Brussels stalls on trade talks after Brexit
Raab says, if the government found that, having agreed the withdrawal agreement, progress towards a trade deal slowed down, there would be consequences, including to UK’s payments to the EU.

• Raab suggests UK will stop its £39bn payment to the EU if Brussels stalls on trade talks after Brexit.

This is new. At a committee hearing earlier this year, Suella Braverman, the junior Brexit minister, said the £39bn payment was unconditional; there was nothing in the withdrawal agreement that would guarantee a good trade deal would have to follow, she conceded. (She had a wretched time being questioned about this; you can find some of the exchanges here.)

In a recent report on the Brexit negotiations, the Commons Brexit committee highlighted this issue. It said:

A legally binding agreement on the UK’s future relationship can only be agreed once the UK is a third country. If the UK government wishes to make the payment of the financial settlement conditional on reaching a binding agreement on the future relationship, it would need to secure the agreement of the EU27 to inserting text to this effect in the withdrawal agreement. We note that the government has not yet secured a clause in the withdrawal agreement linking the financial settlement to the satisfactory conclusion of negotiations on the framework for the future relationship. We call on the government to confirm whether the inclusion of such a clause is one of its negotiating objectives.

The EU will probably fight this proposal strongly. Their argument is that the “exit payment” covers financial commitments already made by the UK, and that it is not a payment for a good trade deal.

 

[Arakhor]

Raab can say what he likes but May already committed to covering the shortfall in UK payments.

 

[Silurian]

Do you think that the Spaniards look after therm for free?

Yes, they could retire and stay in the UK or go elsewhere in the world.

Yes the Spanish government charges them.

But the thing is because they spend the the winter in in a warm dry climate they have less illness.
If they get something serious but can still fly they will come back here and use the NHS.

If the UK does not allow UK pensioners to travel stay as they please anywhere in the EU they will stay at home and eat the £350m/week.



I have about a months of food in my house but only two weeks of beer should I be worried!

From The Guardian

The story broke on Tuesday that the government, in anticipation of a no-deal Brexit, has been drawing up plans to stockpile processed foods, in the event that, by 29 March next year, they have still not worked out a way to maintain the free flow of goods – which includes food and medical supplies – between EU producers and UK consumers

.https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-brexit-survival-guide-what-food-to-stockpile

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't really get this, though.
How is a full one eight of your population being "foreign-born" not being pretty huge ? Especially as you consider full integration requires several generations, so that "not fully integrated" population is quite higher than that.

"Full integration" into what? A working class Glaswegian whose parents happen to be from Pakistan is going to appear a lot more "integrated" into his neighbourhood than a toff from the Home Counties.