Brexit Thread IV - They're laughing with us, not at us

[Hrothbern]

I think the obvious choices should be:

• Remain
• Norway Plus (if it can be negotiated in time)
• May's Deal
• WTO rules

I would suggest single transferable vote, as it is the simplest of non-FPTP systems, and FPTP is obviously not the solution here.

I think that if the referendum options are not clear on the Irish border, and not agreed before the referendum with the EU, the referendum will not be a realistic choice for the people.

May's deal is only buying time with that transition period and leaves open if it results in a FTA or something more close. The only thing it arranges black on white for the future is the backstop.
Perhaps May's deal should be stated more precise as the more distant FTA with one of the EU proposals on a lasting soft Irish border.
Norway does not solve the Irish border (Norway as such is a hard border). So.. that "Plus" has to arrange as well that Irish border. How that is envisioned should be written down, agreed with the EU and binding.
If I amend your list with that:

• Remain
• Norway Plus (if it can be negotiated in time) + binding paragraph on the Irish border (as agreed and signed with the EU)
• May's Deal with as future a FTA with a binding paragraph on the Irish border (to improve the backstop solution for the Irish border)
• WTO rules without a with the EU agreed solution on the Irish border. => A hard border.

 

[AmazonQueen]

There are two many splits to agree a referendum on the withdrawal agreement.
I can not see how it would get through parliament unless it was a straight deal or no deal.

I don't think there are any viable options left except a choice between disorderly no deal and breaking the Good Friday Agreement or Remain.
The consequences for the UK, NI and the Union would be dire but if thats the choice people make so be it.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ussually you only have two options in a referendum. So if one happens it would only be to settle remain or leave.
In effect remain=remain as before article50, while leave=any plan (norway/may/other).
Otherwise... You could ask for a remain choice to have over 50% in a ref with 3 or more choices. Imo in either case you may end up keeping the leave.

 

[Hrothbern]

I saw last week on Dutch national TV a documentary on the "punishment attacks" in Belfast.
It seems the frequency has gone up the last couple of years.
The Troubles are still a smouldering fire, like an underground peat fire.
But hey... "the no deal, no problem" brigade sees no issues

Reminds me on the Charge of the Light Brigade
Unclear orders, bad intel, animosity between the Light and the Heavy Brigades... but so what... charge !

Alfred Tennyson

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell.
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.


When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!

 

[Samson]

Juncker: 'no room whatsoever' to renegotiate Brexit deal

Jean-Claude Juncker has said there is “no room whatsoever” for renegotiating the Brexit deal as Theresa May returns to Brussels in an attempt to reopen talks.
Junker offered May only additional “clarifications and interpretations” of the contentious backstop solution, designed to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.
Speaking to the European parliament in Strasbourg, Juncker told MEPs: “There is a surprise guest at the European council, which is Brexit, I am surprised. I am surprised because we had reached an agreement.
“Notwithstanding that it would appear that there are problems right at the end of the road, I will meet Mrs May this evening.”
He said the withdrawal agreement was the best and only deal possible. “There is no room whatsoever for renegotiation but of course there is room, if used intelligently, to give further clarifications and interpretations without opening the withdrawal agreement. Everybody has to know the withdrawal agreement will not be reopened.”​

 

[Broken_Erika]

Brexit: Theresa May gets stuck in car ahead of Angela Merkel meeting
Theresa May got stuck in her car after she arrived to meet German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

The UK prime minster's door remained locked while staff worked to open it, eventually managing to let her out.

Mrs May is meeting several European leaders and officials in a bid to rescue her Brexit deal after she postponed a House of Commons vote.

The prime minister said she needed "further assurances" on the Northern Ireland border plan to secure backing from MPs.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-4652...s-stuck-in-car-ahead-of-angela-merkel-meeting

 

[PhroX]

Now if only that car had been hurtling towards a cliff, it would've been a perfect metaphor.....

 

[Silurian]

Some good news

Spoiler :

Father Christmas has been spotted by a BBC reporter in Parliament

Not for children

Spoiler :

he is not real

 

[uppi]

I think the obvious choices should be:

• Remain
• Norway Plus (if it can be negotiated in time)
• May's Deal
• WTO rules

I would suggest single transferable vote, as it is the simplest of non-FPTP systems, and FPTP is obviously not the solution here.

Norway Plus has no place on this list. It is not a realistic option for March, because there is no way it will be negotiated until then. The only way to get a Norway Plus deal, after all that has happened, is to accept May's deal with the EU and then use the transition period to negotiate the terms of the future relationship accordingly. May has made it impossible to get a Norway Plus deal for the exit, so if you still want one, there is no other choice than to vote for May's deal.

The only three options right now are:

• Remain
• May's deal
• Chaos

 

[Broken_Erika]

Norway Plus has no place on this list. It is not a realistic option for March, because there is no way it will be negotiated until then. The only way to get a Norway Plus deal, after all that has happened, is to accept May's deal with the EU and then use the transition period to negotiate the terms of the future relationship accordingly. May has made it impossible to get a Norway Plus deal for the exit, so if you still want one, there is no other choice than to vote for May's deal.

The only three options right now are:

• Remain
• May's deal
• Chaos

Most likely option:Chaos!

 

[Arakhor]

Apparently, the Chancellor Philip Hammond told the Labour MP (and Shadow Chancellor) John McDonnell to vote for the Brexit deal on the table at the moment. The Speaker interrupted to say: "It's quite difficult to vote for something if there isn't a vote." He's not a happy bunny about the PM's constant sidestepping of Parliament.

Here's a quote from Marina Hyde in the Guardian: "And yet, there are hourly reminders that it could be a lot worse. European Research Group henchman Steve Baker MP has declared that the four Eurosceptics who have quit the cabinet – Boris Johnson, David Davis, Dominic Raab and Esther McVey – should decide which one of them will run as a Brexit PM. What a banquet of choice for the British people that would be. According to YouGov polling this week, Boris Johnson’s approval ratings are currently minus 35, David Davis’s are minus 19, Dominic Raab’s are minus 21, and Esther McVey’s were not polled, presumably on the basis that the recently departed high priestess of universal credit would break their measuring device."

 

[really]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46528952
'We simply cannot allow the Irish to treat us like this," the former minister said about the negotiating tactics of the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar.

The Conservative MP was exasperated that the Republic of Ireland (population: 4.8m) has been able to shape the EU negotiating stance that has put such pressure on the UK (population: 66m).

"This simply cannot stand," the one-time moderniser told me. "The Irish really should know their place."'
In case anyone is still wondering why we are insisting on the backstop being legally binding, or why Irish people are so positive about the EU.

We do know our place - it is in the EU.

 

[Arakhor]

It's the main problem, isn't it? Not only is this a total failure of diplomacy that even (especially!) such Tory idols as Churchill and Thatcher would be horrified about, many of these loons are still chasing the dream of Empire 2.0, apparently believing that Ireland should remember 800+ years of conquest and remain subservient to our wishes.

 

[Silurian]

Its almost as if they were trying to "upset" the Irish.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, well to play devil's advocate: the hard border can realistically lead to the dissolution of the uk.

 

[Arakhor]

Of course, all the UK needs to do is hand back Northern Ireland and there's no need for the backstop at all.

 

[Kyriakos]

Of course, all the UK needs to do is hand back Northern Ireland and there's no need for the backstop at all.

Maybe it wont be enough, cause scotland may leave quite soon afterwards.
Only wales seems set to stay perpetually under english control

 

[Senethro]

Why is it that the only crap some westminster politicians give with regards to NI is whose flag flies over it? Nothing else. Not the people, not the peace, not its welfare. If they value it so little why the desperate grip upon it?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Why is it that the only crap some westminster politicians give with regards to NI is whose flag flies over it? Nothing else. Not the people, not the peace, not its welfare. If they value it so little why the desperate grip upon it?

Pax Brittania!

 

[uppi]

Of course, all the UK needs to do is hand back Northern Ireland and there's no need for the backstop at all.

Or you could just declare the UK a failure and join the United Republic of Ireland and Great Britain. It is going to take some time until you get used to being commanded by the Irish, but it is all for your best, trust me.