Christianity in America

You make your point well. But the problem with religious extremists is that they commonly believe that because they are doing God's will, then there is no restraint on their part. They have no doubt about their rightness, or that God will reward their work. This makes them both immensely dangerous, and typically impossible to find common ground with. Or, for that matter, any sense of rules at all.
That's just "extremist behaviour", nothing specific to religions (though religion certainly pushes toward it). That they justify it by "God's will", secular ideology, the Greatness of the Nation or whatever is just a dressing on the same underlying system where a personally-held doctrine is held to be true to the extent it has priority over reality.
 
Crime was lower even though more people were poor.

It's all fine and dandy to remove God from the indoctrination of the young but absolutely nothing was brought in as a replacement so now children grow up with no moral limitations whatsoever other than what happens to currently be unpopular.... so they are less moral by default. This is what happens when morality is so relative it becomes democratic.
Crime & religiosity of a society are almost always inversely correlated
 
Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, contrary to common misconception, crime in the United States has declined steadily, and has significantly declined by the late 1990s and also in the early 2000s.

Violent crime rates (per 100,000) in the United States (1960-2018):


hide
YearViolent crimeMurder and non-negligent
manslaughter
RapeRobberyAggravated
assault
1960160.95.19.660.186.1
1961158.14.89.458.385.7
1962162.34.69.459.788.6
1963168.24.69.461.892.4
1964190.64.911.268.2106.2
1965200.25.112.171.7111.3
1966220.05.613.280.8120.3
1967253.26.214.0102.8130.2
1968298.46.915.9131.8143.8
1969328.77.318.5148.4154.5
1970363.57.918.7172.1164.8
1971396.08.620.5188.0178.8
1972401.09.022.5180.7188.8
1973417.49.424.5183.1200.5
1974461.19.826.2209.3215.8
1975487.89.626.3220.8231.1
1976467.88.726.6199.3233.2
1977475.98.829.4190.7247.0
1978497.89.031.0195.8262.1
1979548.99.834.7218.4286.0
1980596.610.236.8251.1298.5
1981594.39.836.0258.4289.3
1982570.89.134.0238.8289.0
1983537.78.333.8216.7279.4
1984539.97.935.7205.7290.6
1985556.68.036.8209.3304.0
1986620.18.638.1226.0347.4
1987612.58.337.6213.7352.9
1988640.68.537.8222.1372.2
1989666.98.738.3234.3385.6
1990729.69.441.1256.3422.9
1991758.29.842.3272.7433.4
1992757.79.342.8263.7441.9
1993747.19.541.1256.0440.5
1994713.69.039.3237.8427.6
1995684.58.237.1220.9418.3
1996636.67.436.3201.9391.0
1997611.06.835.9186.2382.1
1998567.66.334.5165.5361.4
1999523.05.732.8150.1334.3
2000506.55.532.0145.0324.0
2001504.55.631.8148.5318.6
2002494.45.633.1146.1309.5
2003475.85.732.3142.5295.4
2004463.25.532.4136.7288.6
2005469.05.631.8140.8290.8
2006473.65.831.6150.0292.0
2007471.85.730.6148.3287.2
2008458.65.429.8145.9277.5
2009431.95.029.1133.1264.7
2010404.54.827.7119.3252.8
2011387.14.727.0113.9241.5
2012387.84.727.1113.1242.8
2013369.14.525.9109.0229.6
2014361.64.426.6101.3229.2
2015373.74.928.4102.2238.1
2016386.65.430.0102.9248.3
2017383.85.330.798.6249.2
2018368.95.030.986.2246.8



YearProperty crimeBurglaryLarcenyMotor vehicle theft
19601,726.3
19611,747.9
19632,012
19652,249
19672,736
19693,351
19713,769
19733,737
19754,811
19774,602
19795,017
19815,264
19834,637
19854,650
19874,940
19895,078
19915,140
19924,903.71,168.43,103.6631.6
19934,740.01,099.73,033.9606.3
19944,660.21,042.13,026.9591.3
19954,590.5987.03,043.2560.3
19964,451.0945.02,980.3525.7
19974,316.3918.82,891.8505.7
19984,052.5863.22,729.5459.9
19993,743.6770.42,550.7422.5
20003,618.3728.82,477.3412.2
20013,658.1741.82,485.7430.5
20023,630.6747.02,450.7432.9
20033,591.2741.02,416.5433.7
20043,514.1730.32,362.3421.5
20053,431.5726.92,287.8416.8
20063,346.6733.12,213.2400.2
20073,276.4726.12,185.4364.9
20083,214.6733.02,166.1315.4
20093,041.3717.72,064.5259.2
20102,945.9701.02,005.8239.1
20112,905.4701.31,974.1230.0
20122,868.0672.21,965.4230.4
20132,733.6610.51,901.9221.3
20142,574.1537.21,821.5215.4
20152,500.5494.71,783.6222.2
20162,451.6468.91,745.4237.3
20172,362.9429.71,695.5237.7
20182,199.5376.01,594.6228.9

Major Religions[243]
YearAll ChristiansNon-ReligiousJewishMuslimBuddhists
190097.01.31.4
195093.13.33.10.1
197091.35.22.60.40.1
200082.012.01.91.21.2
202074.219.71.71.41.3
2050(P)66.325.81.32.61.8
 
But the problem with religious extremists is that they commonly believe that because they are doing God's will, then there is no restraint on their part.

I agree. Religious or non religious extremists have it all wrong. Forcing an ideology or will on others, especially through violence, is a crime imho.
 
Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, contrary to common misconception, crime in the United States has declined steadily, and has significantly declined by the late 1990s and also in the early 2000s.

Violent crime rates (per 100,000) in the United States (1960-2018):


hide
YearViolent crimeMurder and non-negligent
manslaughter
RapeRobberyAggravated
assault
1960160.95.19.660.186.1
1961158.14.89.458.385.7
1962162.34.69.459.788.6
1963168.24.69.461.892.4
1964190.64.911.268.2106.2
1965200.25.112.171.7111.3
1966220.05.613.280.8120.3
1967253.26.214.0102.8130.2
1968298.46.915.9131.8143.8
1969328.77.318.5148.4154.5
1970363.57.918.7172.1164.8
1971396.08.620.5188.0178.8
1972401.09.022.5180.7188.8
1973417.49.424.5183.1200.5
1974461.19.826.2209.3215.8
1975487.89.626.3220.8231.1
1976467.88.726.6199.3233.2
1977475.98.829.4190.7247.0
1978497.89.031.0195.8262.1
1979548.99.834.7218.4286.0
1980596.610.236.8251.1298.5
1981594.39.836.0258.4289.3
1982570.89.134.0238.8289.0
1983537.78.333.8216.7279.4
1984539.97.935.7205.7290.6
1985556.68.036.8209.3304.0
1986620.18.638.1226.0347.4
1987612.58.337.6213.7352.9
1988640.68.537.8222.1372.2
1989666.98.738.3234.3385.6
1990729.69.441.1256.3422.9
1991758.29.842.3272.7433.4
1992757.79.342.8263.7441.9
1993747.19.541.1256.0440.5
1994713.69.039.3237.8427.6
1995684.58.237.1220.9418.3
1996636.67.436.3201.9391.0
1997611.06.835.9186.2382.1
1998567.66.334.5165.5361.4
1999523.05.732.8150.1334.3
2000506.55.532.0145.0324.0
2001504.55.631.8148.5318.6
2002494.45.633.1146.1309.5
2003475.85.732.3142.5295.4
2004463.25.532.4136.7288.6
2005469.05.631.8140.8290.8
2006473.65.831.6150.0292.0
2007471.85.730.6148.3287.2
2008458.65.429.8145.9277.5
2009431.95.029.1133.1264.7
2010404.54.827.7119.3252.8
2011387.14.727.0113.9241.5
2012387.84.727.1113.1242.8
2013369.14.525.9109.0229.6
2014361.64.426.6101.3229.2
2015373.74.928.4102.2238.1
2016386.65.430.0102.9248.3
2017383.85.330.798.6249.2
2018368.95.030.986.2246.8



YearProperty crimeBurglaryLarcenyMotor vehicle theft
19601,726.3
19611,747.9
19632,012
19652,249
19672,736
19693,351
19713,769
19733,737
19754,811
19774,602
19795,017
19815,264
19834,637
19854,650
19874,940
19895,078
19915,140
19924,903.71,168.43,103.6631.6
19934,740.01,099.73,033.9606.3
19944,660.21,042.13,026.9591.3
19954,590.5987.03,043.2560.3
19964,451.0945.02,980.3525.7
19974,316.3918.82,891.8505.7
19984,052.5863.22,729.5459.9
19993,743.6770.42,550.7422.5
20003,618.3728.82,477.3412.2
20013,658.1741.82,485.7430.5
20023,630.6747.02,450.7432.9
20033,591.2741.02,416.5433.7
20043,514.1730.32,362.3421.5
20053,431.5726.92,287.8416.8
20063,346.6733.12,213.2400.2
20073,276.4726.12,185.4364.9
20083,214.6733.02,166.1315.4
20093,041.3717.72,064.5259.2
20102,945.9701.02,005.8239.1
20112,905.4701.31,974.1230.0
20122,868.0672.21,965.4230.4
20132,733.6610.51,901.9221.3
20142,574.1537.21,821.5215.4
20152,500.5494.71,783.6222.2
20162,451.6468.91,745.4237.3
20172,362.9429.71,695.5237.7
20182,199.5376.01,594.6228.9

Major Religions[243]
YearAll ChristiansNon-ReligiousJewishMuslimBuddhists
190097.01.31.4
195093.13.33.10.1
197091.35.22.60.40.1
200082.012.01.91.21.2
202074.219.71.71.41.3
2050(P)66.325.81.32.61.8


It should also be noted that US crime statistics improved a lot starting in the early 70s. Federal laws changed which both forced more crime that local law enforcement knew about, but didn't say anything about, to be recorded for statistical purposes. And created a US Census program to monitor crime rates. And the reason for this federal law was that it was certain that crime prior to 1970 was under reported in the US.


Further, crime increases track almost directly from childhood lead exposure.

 
Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, contrary to common misconception, crime in the United States has declined steadily, and has significantly declined by the late 1990s and also in the early 2000s.

Violent crime rates (per 100,000) in the United States (1960-2018):


hide
YearViolent crimeMurder and non-negligent
manslaughter
RapeRobberyAggravated
assault
1960160.95.19.660.186.1
1961158.14.89.458.385.7
1962162.34.69.459.788.6
1963168.24.69.461.892.4
1964190.64.911.268.2106.2
1965200.25.112.171.7111.3
1966220.05.613.280.8120.3
1967253.26.214.0102.8130.2
1968298.46.915.9131.8143.8
1969328.77.318.5148.4154.5
1970363.57.918.7172.1164.8
1971396.08.620.5188.0178.8
1972401.09.022.5180.7188.8
1973417.49.424.5183.1200.5
1974461.19.826.2209.3215.8
1975487.89.626.3220.8231.1
1976467.88.726.6199.3233.2
1977475.98.829.4190.7247.0
1978497.89.031.0195.8262.1
1979548.99.834.7218.4286.0
1980596.610.236.8251.1298.5
1981594.39.836.0258.4289.3
1982570.89.134.0238.8289.0
1983537.78.333.8216.7279.4
1984539.97.935.7205.7290.6
1985556.68.036.8209.3304.0
1986620.18.638.1226.0347.4
1987612.58.337.6213.7352.9
1988640.68.537.8222.1372.2
1989666.98.738.3234.3385.6
1990729.69.441.1256.3422.9
1991758.29.842.3272.7433.4
1992757.79.342.8263.7441.9
1993747.19.541.1256.0440.5
1994713.69.039.3237.8427.6
1995684.58.237.1220.9418.3
1996636.67.436.3201.9391.0
1997611.06.835.9186.2382.1
1998567.66.334.5165.5361.4
1999523.05.732.8150.1334.3
2000506.55.532.0145.0324.0
2001504.55.631.8148.5318.6
2002494.45.633.1146.1309.5
2003475.85.732.3142.5295.4
2004463.25.532.4136.7288.6
2005469.05.631.8140.8290.8
2006473.65.831.6150.0292.0
2007471.85.730.6148.3287.2
2008458.65.429.8145.9277.5
2009431.95.029.1133.1264.7
2010404.54.827.7119.3252.8
2011387.14.727.0113.9241.5
2012387.84.727.1113.1242.8
2013369.14.525.9109.0229.6
2014361.64.426.6101.3229.2
2015373.74.928.4102.2238.1
2016386.65.430.0102.9248.3
2017383.85.330.798.6249.2
2018368.95.030.986.2246.8



YearProperty crimeBurglaryLarcenyMotor vehicle theft
19601,726.3
19611,747.9
19632,012
19652,249
19672,736
19693,351
19713,769
19733,737
19754,811
19774,602
19795,017
19815,264
19834,637
19854,650
19874,940
19895,078
19915,140
19924,903.71,168.43,103.6631.6
19934,740.01,099.73,033.9606.3
19944,660.21,042.13,026.9591.3
19954,590.5987.03,043.2560.3
19964,451.0945.02,980.3525.7
19974,316.3918.82,891.8505.7
19984,052.5863.22,729.5459.9
19993,743.6770.42,550.7422.5
20003,618.3728.82,477.3412.2
20013,658.1741.82,485.7430.5
20023,630.6747.02,450.7432.9
20033,591.2741.02,416.5433.7
20043,514.1730.32,362.3421.5
20053,431.5726.92,287.8416.8
20063,346.6733.12,213.2400.2
20073,276.4726.12,185.4364.9
20083,214.6733.02,166.1315.4
20093,041.3717.72,064.5259.2
20102,945.9701.02,005.8239.1
20112,905.4701.31,974.1230.0
20122,868.0672.21,965.4230.4
20132,733.6610.51,901.9221.3
20142,574.1537.21,821.5215.4
20152,500.5494.71,783.6222.2
20162,451.6468.91,745.4237.3
20172,362.9429.71,695.5237.7
20182,199.5376.01,594.6228.9

Major Religions[243]
YearAll ChristiansNon-ReligiousJewishMuslimBuddhists
190097.01.31.4
195093.13.33.10.1
197091.35.22.60.40.1
200082.012.01.91.21.2
202074.219.71.71.41.3
2050(P)66.325.81.32.61.8
Is this officially recorded crime or victim survey statistics?

If it's officially recorded, it's always very difficult on the face to know how much in the growth of crime rates in that 60s to 90s period is increased reporting, and better police administration to record things, rather than underlying actual changes in crime levels.
 
Crime is going down, religion is going down.
I don't think crime is going down because religion is going down. I don't think that correlation has a causation.

But it is why I asked: What is the time period in America when God wasn't kicked out?

To which I got no reply .... of course.
 
It should also be noted that US crime statistics improved a lot starting in the early 70s. Federal laws changed which both forced more crime that local law enforcement knew about, but didn't say anything about, to be recorded for statistical purposes. And created a US Census program to monitor crime rates. And the reason for this federal law was that it was certain that crime prior to 1970 was under reported in the US.
Is this officially recorded crime or victim survey statistics?

If it's officially recorded, it's always very difficult on the face to know how much in the growth of crime rates in that 60s to 90s period is increased reporting, and better police administration to record things, rather than underlying actual changes in crime levels.
They're officially recorded crime statistics. Bureau of Justice Statistics and FBI.
The FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting Program’s National Incident-Based Reporting System went live with test submissions in 1989; a handbook for the system was published in 2002; and as of 2010, only 43% of reporting agencies were fully certified. Only 32 state UCR programs were enrolled, and of those, only 15 were submitting all of their data. The Crime Index that was started in 1960 was suspended in 2004, and the Summary Reporting System was retired, fully replaced by NIBRS, in 2021. I don't know where enrollment or usage stands today, but The Marshal Project claims that, as of reporting year 2021, NIBRS was still missing data from 7,000 agencies, including the NYPD and LAPD (basically the entire state of California, in fact).

So anybody who claims that crime in the US is worse today than it was in decades past literally couldn't know what they're talking about. (All that said, it's still worth noting that crime rates in the data we do have are falling. The data in that table above are incomplete, but afaik we have no reason to think they're wrong, for what they do cover. The stories I've read of failures to report incidents properly, such as in Boston, haven't included falsified data, to my knowledge. I doubt all ~18,000 agencies have been subject to scrutiny, though. Could be all sorts of shenanigans going on.)

 
Last edited:
1960s to the 90s...hmmm...what else was going on? Most Boomers were moving through their 20s and 30s. The boomer bulge was the largest cohort in history. Perhaps the decline in crime in the 90s was related to them growing up and settling down.
 
You make your point well. But the problem with religious extremists is that they commonly believe that because they are doing God's will, then there is no restraint on their part. They have no doubt about their rightness, or that God will reward their work. This makes them both immensely dangerous, and typically impossible to find common ground with. Or, for that matter, any sense of rules at all.

I mean I would also argue that postmodernism has caused many secular positions to decend into the realm of woo woo superstition to the point of fanaticism.

So it goes both ways.

P.S. on a side tangent can someone explain what post post modernism is and does it actually exist? I've heard legends and rumors.
 
P.S. on a side tangent can someone explain what post post modernism is and does it actually exist? I've heard legends and rumors.
Postmodernism is an intellectual stance or mode of discourse[1][2] characterized by skepticism towards elements of the Enlightenment worldview. It questions the "grand narratives" of modernity, rejects the certainty of knowledge and stable meaning, and acknowledges the influence of ideology in maintaining political power.[3][4] The idea of objective claims is dismissed as naïve realism,[5] emphasizing the conditional nature of knowledge.[4] Postmodernism embraces self-referentiality, epistemological relativism, moral relativism, pluralism, irony, irreverence, and eclecticism.[4] It opposes the "universal validity" of binary oppositions, stable identity, hierarchy, and categorization.[6][7]

Emerging in the mid-twentieth century as a reaction against modernism,[8][9][10] postmodernism has permeated various disciplines[11] and is linked to critical theory, deconstruction, and post-structuralism.[4]

Critics argue that postmodernism promotes obscurantism, abandons Enlightenment rationalism and scientific rigor, and contributes little to analytical or empirical knowledge.


 
But it is why I asked: What is the time period in America when God wasn't kicked out?
1962 is what I think CI had in mind. Supreme Court prohibited (mandated communal) prayer in schools. One can to this day pray silently (unless some overzealous Birmingham police happen to be around). As unprepared students of all persuasions do when that pop quiz is announced.:D There are no atheists in the foxholes.

P.S. on a side tangent can someone explain what post post modernism is and does it actually exist? I've heard legends and rumors.
It is inchoate at present, as Kuhn would predict. Keep your eyes open.
 
Last edited:
I mean I would also argue that postmodernism has caused many secular positions to decend into the realm of woo woo superstition to the point of fanaticism.

So it goes both ways.

P.S. on a side tangent can someone explain what post post modernism is and does it actually exist? I've heard legends and rumors.
im confused. are you joking? no, real question, because this is just confusing :D

you would argue that postmodernism has caused secular positions to descend into superstition and fanaticism.

and you don't know what postmodernism is and whether it exists? how could you argue it'd cause anything to happen if you don't know if it exists?

-

regardless, if you're curious, i can do some layman simplification of some "base" postmodernist stances, although as many note all of the time, postmodernist thinkers are very different.
 
P.S. on a side tangent can someone explain what post post modernism is and does it actually exist? I've heard legends and rumors.
A couple of people seem to have missed the bolded word here (or possibly the one after it)
 
It's a saying. I feel certain that even in a foxhole, you would retain your atheism, Valka.
I know it's a saying, and a rather presumptuous one. And I'd have the sense enough to not get into a foxhole in the first place.

That said, I've been up all night and am currently a bit cranky.
 
Back
Top Bottom