Civilization List

[T_F]

I think I agree with Berenthor on the whole Shadow thing. The point is not where the ultimate authority comes from, the point is merely whether or not they're different enough to justify separate civs. I think they are; there are a lot of differences in at least units used - for example, Sauron made extensive use of trolls and Morgoth never used them at all.
Plus Morgoth himself would be a FAR more powerful king unit than Sauron, and anyone in their right mind playing Shadow would pick Morgoth unless we totally ignored the difference in power levels between Valar and Maiar.
I'm perfectly fine if we have only Shadow, but I disagree with it.

I like the ideas with balrogs. I do think that instant death upon victory is a bit harsh, I like some of the minor penalties though. Agreed that any unit who kills one gets to be a hero and heroes get a LOT of XP and maybe a special Balrog-slayer promo.
The balrogs should also get that Fear or whatever promotion from FFH, where sometimes units will refuse to attack them.

King units are basically just hero units that represent the guy who's also represented by your civ's leaderhead. I remember in Civ3 when there were regicide games and if you killed a king unit the civ would disappear from the map, but I don't think we want that. Maybe we could implement RFC's leaderhead switching code so that a civ's leader changes if the current one dies.
I think all civs should start with their king unit. That also solves the problem of disabling building the other leaderheads' units, since you can just disable all of them. We might want to give them FFH's slow-but-constant XP gain too, though that might unbalance them a bit.
I like the max number of heroes too, maybe there should be a National Wonder (and maybe a World Wonder too) that raises the cap.

 

[Sengir]

I knew I forgot something: max number of heroes is ok, I like T_F's idea of a wonder raising the cap.

 

[xmen510]

Those are all good ideas. I understand the reasoning for just 1 civ and for breaking them up. I like the idea of breaking them up myself.

I like the idea of a Wonder or perhaps a Project increasing your Heroes cap.

 

[xmen510]

I had an idea about the Colour Code. I am not sure if this has been discussed or not so I thought I would put out my ideas for it.

Civ Colour Codes:

Spoiler :

Gondor: Blue (Khmer)
Arnor: Blue (America)
Rohan: Brown (Mali)
Isengard: Grey (Byzantine - RFC)
Haradrim: Yellow (Zulu)
Easterling: Orange (Netherlands)
Khazâd: Longbeards: Brown (Mongols)
Khazâd: Ironfists: Brown (Native Americans)
Mordor: Red (Russia)
Angband: Black
Angmar: Red (Japan)
Dunlendings: ?
Quendi: Vanyar: White (England)
Quendi: Noldor: Finwe: Gold (Inca)
Quendi: Noldor: Feanor: Green (Aztec)
Quendi: Teleri: Green (Arabia)
Quendi: Sindar: Green (Portugal)
Northmen: Purple (Vikings)
Númenor: Purple (Byzantine 1000AD Scenario)
Edain: Blue (Greece)

Anyway, those are just some ideas, feel free to pick apart.

 

[T_F]

Oh, we forgot that.

Lessee...
Dunlendings are probably going to be merged with Isengard, so that's that problem solved.
If Angband is black and we have barbarians, there might be some conflict there. Also, both Angband and Mordor can be black (or red if barbarians exist) if we implement the one-shadow-civ-per-game rule.
I think the Teleri should be some kind of light bluish, they've always seemed blue in my mind. Same goes for both Noldor (though Gold is fine), I somehow don't think Aztec Green really fits the House of Fëanor. (Maybe switch out Rohan and Fëanorians, since Rohan seems somehow Green to me, though keeping them Brown works fine.)

Rest is fine.

 

[xmen510]

It was a virtual tie when it comes to Isengard on its own or combined with the Dunlendings. That is one of the first things that the new Mod Leader will have to make a decision on. Right now, the list has them separated which is why the optional idea citylist has been posted in the city list thread.

 

[Sengir]

Colours look good. I don't know of the top of my head what's left for the Dunlendings.

 

[Berenthor]

I like the list, but I wouldn't make two civs the same color, even if they are normally not in the same game (Mordor and Angband) we would like to have the possibility to choose both in a custom game. For Isengard and Dunlendings, I really think we should seperate them (Isengard as a one city civ for extra flavour).

 

[xmen510]

nevermind.

 

[xmen510]

Offer suggestions for the colour codes. The one I posted are just that, suggestions. I like the idea of Rohan being green and I think Dunlendings would fit better as Brown myself. However we have only so many colours to work with.

We might need to move away from Colour associated with Civ because so many are similar. We mihgt just need to assign colours at first without thought of how it applys to the Civ itself. We can always update them at another time.

 

[xmen510]

The Noldor are great with just 2 Houses, but it should not be House of Finwe but House of Fingolfin. Feanor was the heir of Finwe, his most loved son; Fingolfin was the other major Noldo leader, Feanor's "rival", the High King after him, and Finarfin's people followed him and his sons allways.

Elda King makes a very good point here. Perhaps we should change Finwe to Fingolfin.

EDIT: I just noticed Sengir's remarks regarding this issue. If no one has a problem with it, I will change the Leader from Finwe to Fingolfin.

 

[Sengir]

I allready agreed to changing Finwe to Fingolfin, but I will happily agree a second time, as it makes much more sense then having Finwe as leader.

 

[xmen510]

Yeah, I just edited my post. Sorry I missed that. I will go ahead and change the leader to Fingolfin. If anyone has an issue with it, by all means bring it up for discussion.

EDIT: If Berenthor agrees, perhaps he could make the same change in the OP of this thread.

 

[T_F]

Agreed, Fingolfin it is.

I was just thinking, maybe the Kuriotates idea would work for the Elves too. Instead of just trying to encourage them to be small, we could just make them small. Isengard would have to get a big bonus for its one city to balance it though.

 

[Berenthor]

Agreed. Changed in first post

 

[xmen510]

I was thinking along the lines for Isengard of:

+2 Food to all Plots in City Radius
+1 Commerce to all Plots in City Radius
+2 Hammers to all Plots in City Radius

Or do you think that is a bit too powerful. We could give certain bonuses at different ages as well to Isengard instead.

 

[Sengir]

If we do Isengard the Kuriotates way, it will have 3 rings instead of the usual 2, so keep that in mind. I would personally not give it extra food, but leave it at +1 commerce and +1 (maybe +2) hammers.

Also some happy and health bonusses might be necessary to allow a big city. +2 on both perhaps?

 

[Berenthor]

That is a good idea, although I'm not sure about the balance. Isengard should definetly work all three rings of the plots around it (instead of the normal two). For the settlements, I'm still not sure how it works. I'll try to play a game with them to see how it works.

 

[xmen510]

So, will Isengard be the only City that can work these "3 Rings" because it is a 1 city Civ, or is that going to be for all Civs?

Also, could someone please explain what the settlements actually do or represent? Do they cultural borders, can they only be founded in certain circumstances, etc.?

EDIT: on the topic of health and happiness. Perhaps they get a Bonus 1 for each AGE after the AGE OF STARS.

FIRST AGE OF THE SUN: +1 Health & Happiness
SECOND AGE OF THE SUN: +1 Health & Happiness
THIRD AGE OF THE SUN: +1 Health & Happiness
FOURTH AGE OF THE SUN: +1 Health & Happiness

I will also think about trying that race out in a game of FFH2 tonight.

 

[Sengir]

Nope, only Isengard.

From the manual:

The Kuriotates can only have a few real cities (the exact number depends on the map size), all the rest of their cities are Settlements. Settlements are unable to produce gold, research or culture and nothing can be built in a Settlement. They don't cost any maintenance.

Kael's Notes: Originally we designed the Kuriotates to only have their limited number of huge super cities. But being unable to expand and claim more resources was to limiting for them so we created Settlements as a way to still allow the Kuriotates to expand their borders without adding to the production capacity, or significantly to their population.

So the only thing they really do is expanding the cultural borders so that the civ has means to obtain more resources then the ones in his few cities. The same rules as for normal cities apply (2 spaces apart).


Trying it for yourself will help clearing things up (hopefully), as it is kinda hard to explain it.