1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Cuba US: John Kerry reopens Havana embassy on historic trip

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Agent327, Aug 14, 2015.

  1. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,236
    Location:
    up yours!
    You have to add to it that Kirchnerism is going down the drain so no free foodstuffs or coke-dollars for Cuba from Buenos Aires, and Brazil is probably going to get rid of Dilma sooner rather than later and their Petrobras is in deep trouble anyway so, out of the two biggest countries in the region, one can't be bothered to worry about Cuba and the other has too many headaches to subsidise them anyway.
    Tourism could be a good initial bet, and Cuba could have some extra income from decently-managed (by which, incidentally, I do not mean big-foreign-firm-owned) agriculture.
    Are there any big fisheries around?
    US doesn't back down from stupid positions negotiate with terrorists and there's a very powerful pro-Cuban exile lobby. Not as powerful as the pro-Israel lobby, I think, but powerful enough.
    Gotten more? Step by step. Now the Cubans can't back down unless they're given an excuse. There's no one to turn if they need substantial material support in their next bout of economic crisis. Soft power can actually win at times.
     
  2. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    46,747
    As a side note in the circus...American politics.

    As the candidate that has no choice but to comment on this Cuba business as if it were the most important thing to happen to America since the collapse of the Soviet Union...Marco Rubio...got hounded into talking about it today he came off sounding like an absolute whack job...even for a Republican presidential candidate. Total bombs and belligerence. I can't help but think that every other candidate immediately recognized this as a weakness, because it can't play well outside the relatively tiny 'Cuban expatriot hard liner' demographic.
     
  3. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    14,877
    I didn't know about the Argentina and Brazil stuff, but that sounds interesting so I should read up more on it.

    According to this, fishing is a major industry for Cuba.

    Cuba is very rich in underutilized, untapped, resources overall. It can benefit from investment in a lot of industries beyond tourism, but I figured that tourism would be the "easiest" to get started with because I imagine mining and manufacturing are fairly capital intensive.
     
  4. Frank Sobotka

    Frank Sobotka Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    So this mean that the United States government will cease their terrorist campaign against the Cuban government? Are they done in making Cuba an example of how powerful United States are in bullying their neighbors in the western hemisphere? Or is it a sign of the decline of US power in the region?
     
  5. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,236
    Location:
    up yours!
    Good development. Of course, that comes from a country that sees Barack Obama as a leftwing politician and universal healthcare as Communism, but, as I said before, step by step.
    Argentina will vote in one of three right-wing, conservative candidates who wouldn't be very friendly to the Venezuelan and Cuban stronkmen. The difference between them (regarding this issue) is how overt this would be.
    Brazil… I don't know what Lula will do, prop up Dilma or let her fall. Given that his hands are dirty (same as most of his and her governments' officials, really), I don't know what he would do to save his rear end.

    So, sadly, there's no reason, really, why Cubans should be so poor. Eventually they'll have got rid of the Castroist quasi-monarchy, but meanwhile, they can be helped through means other than regime change.
    Decline? Far from it. They're just trying diplomacy for once, and since Obama doesn't have to bow to the pressures of a re-election campaign committee and pundits, he has more leeway. If the Repubs keep doing the same as Marco Rubio they'll just damage their own position.
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    46,747
    At first glance I think even the other Republicans are going to take the opportunity to throw Rubio under the bus on this one.
     
  7. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    14,877
    A lot of people, of course, are going to blame the US embargo, but the US embargo hadn't stopped the vast majority of the world from investing in Cuba should they wish. The reason why people don't want to invest in Cuba is because if the government comes knocking on your door, there is likely nothing you can do about it unless your country and Cuba have a treaty with a ISDS clause.

    It is really no different from Venezuela, only Venezuela is a lot worse about it. The difference between the two is while Cuba is taking babysteps to opening up its markets to private enterprise, Venezuela continues to clamp down on, nationalize supermarkets, and pretend that the entire opposition is funded and backed by the US.

    However, I don't think that the regime must go in order for reforms to be implemented. China has managed to walk a middle path between liberal democracy/liberal markets and typical authoritarian command economy. For the United States, the steps taken to open and develop ties with Cuba could be little different from opening relations with the PRC. Splits Cuba away from Venezuela and reap the economic benefits from trade.
     
  8. Frank Sobotka

    Frank Sobotka Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Have you been paying attention to current events during the past 5 or so years?

    Or it can by that the majority of investment in Cuba is financed by Chinese capital, with Brazil in second place?

    Did you know that there is a $4.7 billion deal for the construction of two hydroelectric dams in Argentina by a Chinese construction and engineering company? I know that has nothing to do with Cuba, but how does that do to US prestige in their backyard?

    Obama is a figurehead.

    Rubio is from Florida. Anything that has any relevance to US policy to Cuba, Floridian politicians in that state has the monopoly over the Cuban/Exile votes. Been like that since the mid 60s.
     
  9. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    14,877
    Or it could be because Cuba is a large untapped market?

    Not...very much, it doesn't. Sorry? I understand that this thread started off as a Great American Satan circlejerk, but now we've calmed down and are trying to have a conversation of the benefits of developing and opening ties.

    Now, and I want you to follow me on this one, sometimes, a company has money. With this money, it invests in something it thinks will turn a profit for itself. Now, if we lived in the world where only US companies are expected to invest in every single major project, nothing would get done!

    So, the vast majority of people would look at the dam building in Argentina the same way they look at every major project not funded by a US company: as a major project not funded by a US company.

    When a US company invests into a project in Europe, do we say that this damages German prestige? No, because that would be silly. That would be representative of an extremely gamified (of the Paradox variety) view of the world and relations between countries.

    However, I do agree with you on one part. It has absolutely nothing to do with Cuba!

    For an extremely unique definition of figurehead, sure!
     
  10. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    33,999
    Location:
    USA #1
    Indeed. Eventually the US will learn it can't go around bullying and intimidating countries that merely have different views of the world than their own. Countries which finally overthrew fascist puppet dictators which the US government inflicted upon them after overthrowing their sovereign governments for incredibly nonsensical reasons.

    There is good reason why much of the world hates and despises the US government. Why we continue to be the victims of terrorist acts from the blowback from our incessant inept foreign policy decisions, hegemony, and imperialism.
     
  11. Oruc

    Oruc Reactionary

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2002
    Messages:
    8,655
    Location:
    It's like I'm really in Revleft
    So continous land empires get a free pass? The US meddling with Cuba wasn't imperialist at all then.
     
  12. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    13,483
    Yes :)
     
  13. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    33,999
    Location:
    USA #1
    Of course not. The Monroe Doctrine was entirely within reason. :sarcasm: They had to stop the evil imperialists somehow. :crazyeye:
     
  14. Frank Sobotka

    Frank Sobotka Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Pretty much.

    Yeah, I kinda went off the rails a little bit. Never mind me! lol
     
  15. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,236
    Location:
    up yours!
    From today's demonstrations:
    Spoiler :


    Around 250 of the Brazilian Lower House's 513 members are in favour of impeachment. Dilma's walking on a tightrope.
    I'm not sure. Many other Repub wannabe candidates are out to out-Trump Trump regarding all them foreigns.
    Venezuela will be either doing this very same process soon or just ditching the façade of representative democracy and declaring themselves a military-run narco-state, also relatively soon. Too early to know yet, but Cuba's slipping out of their grasp.
    I have. The temporary shoal of cocaine-and-oil-funded populism has amanged to erode itself even faster than its showrunners themselves thought.
    You're a new poster, you'll get better.
     
  16. Colonel

    Colonel Rule of Law

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    4,220
    Location:
    USA
    Realistically, the US can and will do whatever it wants. We are the world's only Superpower left. I will say the US has learned one easy lesson, much easier to support a dictator after his rise to power then try to install a new one. Terrorist action being the worst response to our foreign policy decisions can be handled easily. The reason current terrorist organizations are focusing overseas and trying to get individuals from the US to target us at home is because they can't launch an effective attack against the US home soil any longer. Very few countries are left that would willingly harbor terrorists because they know the Americans will come knocking if they do. Overall our foreign policy has been fairly effective and if all else fails we bomb them into submission.
     
  17. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    33,999
    Location:
    USA #1
    It isn't realistic at all for a bully to think he can do whatever he wants unless he has no morals.

    More people see the US "mainly negatively" than they do North Korea.



    Gee, I wonder why.

    So I hope you plan to have far more 9/11-style incidents in the future. That they "can be handled easily" in some sort of magical manner that hasn't worked so far.
     
  18. Colonel

    Colonel Rule of Law

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    4,220
    Location:
    USA
    If you will notice we haven't had a major attack by organized terrorist organizations in the better part of a decade. This isn't because Jihadist decided to stay at home. We have effectively destroyed their war-fighting capability. Terrorists are left to lone wolf-style attacks with little if any support from multi-national terrorist organizations. Stopping terrorism entirely will never happen, but we have effectively limited its ability to conduct large-scale operations. As for the root cause of terrorist action, anyone who thinks strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up a movie theater or turning an aircraft into a missle is simply sick and disgusting and they will be hunted down and ended like the animals they are. Those who support them are equally as evil and will be ended in kind. US policy has little to do with the twisted sense of religious lunacy these people have, and even if we reversed 60 years of American foreign policy these nut cases would still be doing the same things because they consider Westerners to be infidels.
     
  19. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    33,999
    Location:
    USA #1
    What utter nonsense. You can pretend all that is factual, but it obviously isn't. That sounds like a combination of GWB's speech writer, an ad for the next Republican debate, and some of the usual Islamophobic rhetoric thrown in for good measure.

    They don't hate our freedom. They don't hate us because we are "infidels". They hate our incessant meddling in their own affairs. They hate their family members being victims of "collateral damage" from our nonsensical wars and drone attacks. They hate our blind support of Israel no matter what atrocities they commit against Muslims.

    The al Qaida are just the tip of the iceberg. We continue to foment hatred in much of the world and there will be more blowback as a direct result, just as 9/11 was a direct reaction to our troops being stationed in Saudi Arabia.

    Our society is far too open to completely eliminate major attacks. It is only a matter of time before the next one.
     
  20. brennan

    brennan Argumentative Brit

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,023
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worthing, Southern England
    You make 9/11 sound like an invasion. Huge shock it may have been, but it was essentially a few synchronised hijackings and required little organisation and no extensive support operations.
     

Share This Page