Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

The French issue is a side effect of my fix to the city flip bug that I haven't thought of yet, the next commit will include a fix.

 

[AOS9001]

There is a problem with France's spawn. They're not getting Bordeaux flipped to them in either 3000 BC and 600 AD. Marseille doesn't flip in 600 AD either.

Well, that explains a lot. Now I know what to do until it's fixed.

See the thing is that India is a vibrant mixing pot, lots of stuff gets put into it and gets mixed up creating new vibrant flavours yet really it's all still curry.

Damn, I'm really craving some curry now

Curses, you've spread your cravings to me too. Weird thing is, I was just talking about Indian food with someone today...

 

[civ_king]

Well, that explains a lot. Now I know what to do until it's fixed.



Curses, you've spread your cravings to me too. Weird thing is, I was just talking about Indian food with someone today...

Sorry, I figured a curry analogy would be appropriate considering curry is the name for a lot of different things

 

[Leoreth]

Some screenshots of the results of my current efforts. I had to nerf India (the civ, not the subcontinent) a little because they were the most advanced civ in 1500 AD.

The attached screenshots show the Mughals in 1500 AD after a 3000 BC start and in 1775 AD after a 600 AD start (vassalized to England). They usually take over all of the subcontinent when India is not present, but usually remain limited to north western India in the 3000 BC scenario. The Indian civ needs to collapse more often in my opinion, I'll try to achieve that by adding some historical barbarian invasions.

Daibul in the second screenshot should better be called Karachi, right?

 

[Dumanios]

Mughal names I came up with:

Main Menu: The Mughals
No Cities: Mughal Peoples
Not Democratic or Communist: Mughal Empire
Democratic: Republic of Pakistan
Communist: People's Republic of Pakistan
Islamic Democracy: Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Persian Vassal: Satrapy of the Indus?
Arab Vassal: Caliphate of Lahore
Ottoman Vassal: Eyalet of Pakistan
Spanish Vassal: Viceroyalty of West India
French Vassal: Mandates of West India
British Vassal: Dominion of Pakistan
German Vassal: German Pakistan
Russian Vassal: Russian/Soviet Pakistan(take your pick)
Mongol Vassal: Mughal Khanate
East Asian Vassal: Tributary Mughal State
Generic Vassal: Protectorate of Pakistan

 

[Leoreth]

Sounds good!

 

[hoplitejoe]

To equate Mughal with Pakistan seems very wrong...

The name Pakistan means Land of (the) Pure in Urdu and Persian. It was coined in 1933 as Pakstan by Choudhary Rahmat Ali, a Pakistan movement activist, who published it in his pamphlet Now or Never.[19] The name is an acronym representing the "thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKSTAN—by which we mean the five Northern units of India viz: Punjab, North-West Frontier Province (Afghan Province), Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan".[20] The letter 'i' was later added to ease pronunciation.

Pakistan does not refer to an Islamic India but one area of India.

 

[Dumanios]

The Mughals start in Pakistan, and because I couldn't think of anything better for the Mughals other than West India.

 

[Leoreth]

Thinking in general concepts is often only the only way to go in RFC, and if the Mughal civ represents Muslim India as opposed to Hindu India, it makes sense to draw a continuity to Pakistan (there are no actual names of a republican or communist Mughal state, obviously).

The whole thing will hopefully make more sense as soon as I replace RFC's stiff naming system with something more dynamic.

 

[hoplitejoe]

That is also not true, They started in what is now Uzbekistan and invaded India before they invaded Pakistan.

 

[Leoreth]

It should be noted that the civ represents the Delhi Sultanate as well (and therefore spawns in 1206).

 

[hoplitejoe]

The only replacement for the name Pakistan I have come up with is Mughalistan.
On the plus side it covers much of northern India, On the down side it seems only to be used by nut cases who think Pakistan and Bangladesh are planing to create a land bridge across India.

EDIT:
They also seem to think Sri Lanka is mostly Islamic

 

[J. pride]

The only replacement for the name Pakistan I have come up with is Mughalistan.
On the plus side it covers much of northern India, On the down side it seems only to be used by nut cases who think Pakistan and Bangladesh are planing to create a land bridge across India.

Alright, Mughalistan sounds worse than Pakistan (or Afghanistan) and encompasses the core area of modern day India. Also, In the modern era, the point of this is not to represent India but the following empires / nations: the Durrani Empire and the modern day nations of Afghanistan and Pakistan

EDIT:
They also seem to think Sri Lanka is mostly Islamic

Actually most of that map seems wrong. There is only one state in India where Muslims are majority and that is Jammu Kashmir.

That is also not true, They started in what is now Uzbekistan and invaded India before they invaded Pakistan.

The troops were mostly composed of ethnic groups from Pakistan and Afghanistan; particularly the Pashtuns and the Hazara. And remember the civ is supposed to represent the Muslim empires of India which were mostly based from Afghanistan and the Indus area.

Pakistan does not refer to an Islamic India but one area of India.

Alternatively, You could call it Afghanistan or the Durrani Empire during the Industrial Age and Pakistan in the modern age. The fact was that the partion occured to separate the muslims of India from the others, so they do kind of represent Islamic India.

Daibul in the second screenshot should better be called Karachi, right?

I think it was only called Karachi after the British advent; although im not sure.

 

[hoplitejoe]

Alright, Mughalistan sounds worse than Pakistan (or Afghanistan) and encompasses the core area of modern day India. Also, In the modern era, the point of this is not to represent India but the following empires / nations: the Durrani Empire and the modern day nations of Afghanistan and Pakistan

If the civ ever did get pushed into just the Pakistan/Afghanistan area then it would collapse! This civ must be ahistorical to survive so I don't think a historical (or modern) name will ever really make sense.
I think the bigest problem with Pakistan as the name is Pakistan is a name for the area it is in and the majority of the civ will be out of that area.

 

[J. pride]

If the civ ever did get pushed into just the Pakistan/Afghanistan area then it would collapse! This civ must be ahistorical to survive so I don't think a historical (or modern) name will ever really make sense.
I think the bigest problem with Pakistan as the name is Pakistan is a name for the area it is in and the majority of the civ will be out of that area.

You bring up a valid point when you point out that Pakistan is a name only applicable to a small area but I still dont agree with you on not the part of that the civ should not be able to survive. Imo, after the Maratha or British conquer Delhi and most of the Mughal holdings in India, i think it would make sense to let the Empire continue as the Emirate of Afghanistan (which also included most of Pakistan and significant parts of Central Asia as seen from the map below)


Now here is my plan on dynamic names, considering that you add a system similar to that of Linkman's (or just copy his system) where features from SOI are imported; features like Dynastaic Names (for civs like China and Arabia), name change according to territory (for civs like the Moguls and Maratha), and flag and leaderhead changes (communist China, USSR among others)

Dynamic Names:
Ghorid Empire: start out with this.
Delhi Sultanate: Conquest of Delhi.
Mughal Empire: on 1526 ad.

Now for the tricky part:
-If the Mughals survive the British and the Marathas and maintain hemogeny over most of India: the the name stays as the Mughal Empire until empire switches to Democracy or enter the modern era when name will be changed to India (will follow Indian Dynamic names) and the flag will also be changed. I say this because in retrospect if you look at it, it is likely that the Hindus would have asked for greater rights sooner or later if the Empire had managed to survive or the people would have asked for democracy.

-If the Mughals lose India; their capital should change to a city in Afghanistan and they should get a flag and leaderhead change and the following name changes:
Emirate of Afghanistan: the first and default one
Kingdom of Afghanistan: If running monarchy during modern era
Islamic Republic of Afghanistan: Democracy
Democratic Republic of Afghanistan: Communist or vassal of Communist Russia or China
British Vassal: British Afghanistan
Russian Vassal: Russian Afghanistan
American Vassal: Republic of Afghanistan
If Vassal of any other country than no name change.

-If the Mughals collapse; than whenever India declares independence of foreign occupation a separate country emerges as Pakistan (consisting of Pakistan and Afghanistan). If India is already present in the form of the Marathas than independence becomes likely after the discovery of nationalism:
Islamic Republic of Pakistan: Democracy
People's Republic of Pakistan: Communist
Dominion of Pakistan: Vassal of Britain
Protectorate of Pakistan: Default Vassal
If independence is reached before 1850 or the capital is in Afghanistan for some reason (like all other cities are destroyed): then the name become Afghanistan and follows the second system stated above.

 

[civ_king]

Some screenshots of the results of my current efforts. I had to nerf India (the civ, not the subcontinent) a little because they were the most advanced civ in 1500 AD.

The attached screenshots show the Mughals in 1500 AD after a 3000 BC start and in 1775 AD after a 600 AD start (vassalized to England). They usually take over all of the subcontinent when India is not present, but usually remain limited to north western India in the 3000 BC scenario. The Indian civ needs to collapse more often in my opinion, I'll try to achieve that by adding some historical barbarian invasions.

Daibul in the second screenshot should better be called Karachi, right?

In 1500 there was no real science winner, Europe was gradually catching up with ~1700 kind of being the turning point of them being a clear leader in science, the military superiority being what allowed Britain to conquer India, basically well promoted Redcoats vs. Rifleman. So India being tech leader does not mean India needs to be beaten to death with nerfbat, simply means that around that tech level the techs should start being more expensive than Europe. Even after conquest Indians still contributed great things in science especially math (Ramanujan, Raman, J Bose, S Bose, Chandrasekhar, etc).

Or the Delhi Sultanate could be stronger on spawn

Also after India dies, respawning it as the Maratha would be so awesome (a full civ)


Kolachi

 

[Linkman226]

The only replacement for the name Pakistan I have come up with is Mughalistan.
On the plus side it covers much of northern India, On the down side it seems only to be used by nut cases who think Pakistan and Bangladesh are planing to create a land bridge across India.

EDIT:
They also seem to think Sri Lanka is mostly Islamic

Also, apparently I missed the memo that Ayodhya is the new capital of India.

 

[Jusos2108]

Pakistan refers to a larger area than modern day Pakistan. Are you aware that Bangladesh was part of (West) Pakistan in 1947-1971 and during that time it was called East Pakistan. So in my opinion Pakistan is a much better dynamic name for Mughals than Afghanistan.

 

[hoplitejoe]

It may refer to a larger area but it still doesn't refer to most of the area where this civ will be.

 

[Ekolite]

I think its fine for the civ to represent both the Mughals and then later, Pakistan. It looks pretty good so far anyway. Are they going to be a full civ, or some kind of unplayable minor (ie. the celts)? I seem to remember you suggesting they would be unplayable, but to be honest I think that would be pointless and they'd be awesome to play . Slightly concerned about the colour scheme though, to me at least they look just the same as Khmer!

If they are to represent Pakistan as well, maybe one of their UHV's could be to obtain a nuclear weapon?