Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[AOS9001]

As cool as it would be to have the Tower of Babel, I agree that it isn't exactly historical.

 

[mayor]

It might not be as historical as the Pyramids that there is proof it existed or still exists. But in that case the Hanging Gardens and the Colossus aren't historical either......

 

[AOS9001]

It might not be as historical as the Pyramids that there is proof it existed or still exists. But in that case the Hanging Gardens and the Colossus aren't historical either......

Barring historical accuracy, what effects do you have in mind for the Tower? I could see a trade bonus, a structure built to touch the heavens themselves would attract people from far and wide...

 

[mayor]

well, a trade bonus would be fitting in that context.
Like I said earlier I had a cultural bonus in mind and a priest(s)slot(s)
Well, Cultural bonus, a tower like that must have a great cultural influence... and the Priest, well like you said, I tower to touch the sky and be in contact with God.

If you look at how in influenced painters it might provide a Artist..... but I'm not a big fan of that myself since those artist lived long after..

 

[LuKo]

I plan to add the Tower in my mod as a winning condition (very expensive in Ancient Era, not available since one ancient tech until Future Era when it would be incredibly and nearly impossibly expensive).

 

[AOS9001]

I plan to add the Tower in my mod as a winning condition (very expensive in Ancient Era, not available since one ancient tech until Future Era when it would be incredibly and nearly impossibly expensive).

I don't entirely understand, but it sounds awesome. But for some reason, I just don't see it popping up in the is mod... Then again, I've been wrong before.

 

[dragodon64]

Leoreth can you please get rid of the current Chinese UB and UP; i mean all that was needed was a a bonus to the tech rate modifier until the renaissance but you went overboard (imo, don't take it the wrong way) and made a rather ahistorical UP and UB:

I mean the power of scholar-bureaucracy is totally bogus as Chinese bureaucracy had nothing to do with science; it was used to reduce corruption and install more competent people in the government and the military. As you can see they little to do with research except that some of them educated in school; their main task was resolving legal disputes, collecting taxes and preserving tradition and values.


-The Power of Bureaucracy: Money put into Research, wealth, culture, spying is more effectively used; so what this means is that you don't really get a research, wealth, culture boost but your gold is more effectively used. For example, 20% on the research bar will actually have the benefit of 40% because theoretically less money is wasted due to corruption thus leading to better results.

-Can you please change the UB back to the padoga and give it a happiness and research bonus such as each priest enhances research by x% or something.

There are a lot better ways to balance the Chinese research such as actually modifying the research; that just my 2 Cents anyway.

How about something like -50% maintenance due to number of cities? This might represent the efficiency of the meritocratic Confucian bureaucracies.

I also think that China should have a behind the scenes tech boost that expires starting with the Renaissance.

Changing their tech path is definitely important, but how about having the tech boost only start in the Classical Era? I really don't think China in 1000BC was more advanced than the near east, so it doesn't seem unrealistic. Also, this might push back the founding date of Confucianism a bit.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

How about something like -50% maintenance due to number of cities? This might represent the efficiency of the meritocratic Confucian bureaucracies.

I also think that China should have a behind the scenes tech boost that expires starting with the Renaissance.

Changing their tech path is definitely important, but how about having the tech boost only start in the Classical Era? I really don't think China in 1000BC was more advanced than the near east, so it doesn't seem unrealistic. Also, this might push back the founding date of Confucianism a bit.

I dunno how I feel about a bonus starting in the Classical Era. Especially considering that it's not terribly hard to beeline a Classical tech pretty early. IIRC Aesthetics is Classical and since it's pretty cheap and available right after Writing, the Chinese won't be delayed very long in getting their bonus. I'd think reducing the bonus, if that ends up being necessary, is more prudent than adding what might be an inconsequential Era limitation.

 

[Leoreth]

Sorry, but I don't think I'll completely redo the Chinese UP and UB again. They synch up fine from a player perspective, and so far it hasn't been demonstrated that AI China is too far ahead in techs. Pikemen and castles (i.e. Engineering) were possible before all these changes as well, so it seems what actually changed was their ability to build so many of them by the time the Mongols arrive. Ways to solve that:

- increase Barbarian pressure
- reduce unit production modifiers
- dissuade the Chinese AI from building pikemen (and caravels, for the conqueror events)

Retuning certain effects like the actual impact of the UP or UB are certainly possible, but basic aspects like three scientist slots should remain because they have proven to be adequate.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Reference guide of a list of Chinese inventions for anyone who wants to see.

I was actually going to ask for a similar tech boost for the Arabians, who were sufficiently advanced and created many inventions themselves.
I remember someone suggested adding science bonuses or scientist slots for the Islamic religious buildings and I want to second that notion.

 

[civ_king]

Sorry, but I don't think I'll completely redo the Chinese UP and UB again. They synch up fine from a player perspective, and so far it hasn't been demonstrated that AI China is too far ahead in techs. Pikemen and castles (i.e. Engineering) were possible before all these changes as well, so it seems what actually changed was their ability to build so many of them by the time the Mongols arrive. Ways to solve that:

- increase Barbarian pressure
- reduce unit production modifiers
- dissuade the Chinese AI from building pikemen (and caravels, for the conqueror events)

Retuning certain effects like the actual impact of the UP or UB are certainly possible, but basic aspects like three scientist slots should remain because they have proven to be adequate.

Please discourage them from building castles, China really wasn't a castle builder

 

[Linkman226]

Make castles require feudalism?

 

[civ_king]

Make castles require feudalism?

That seems historically appropriate


EDIT:

Sorry, but I don't think I'll completely redo the Chinese UP and UB again. They synch up fine from a player perspective, and so far it hasn't been demonstrated that AI China is too far ahead in techs. Pikemen and castles (i.e. Engineering) were possible before all these changes as well, so it seems what actually changed was their ability to build so many of them by the time the Mongols arrive. Ways to solve that:

- increase Barbarian pressure
- reduce unit production modifiers
- dissuade the Chinese AI from building pikemen (and caravels, for the conqueror events)

Retuning certain effects like the actual impact of the UP or UB are certainly possible, but basic aspects like three scientist slots should remain because they have proven to be adequate.

Okay, I have the screenshot on my civ computer, but the year was 1340 and I was Germany, suddenly I see "China is the first to discover Liberalism", does that seem a little um...

PS I think you should add spice to Zanzibar since it's part of the Spice Islands (Yes, there was two sets of spice islands)

 

[Leoreth]

I'm currently thinking about changing the Babylonian UP to a few extra starting techs like Animal Husbandry or Masonry. I know it's pretty generic, but it suits them, doesn't mess up the game in the long run and sometimes generic UPs are fitting (see Egypt).

Obviously their tech rate would need to be rebalanced a little to make up for it but that shouldn't be a problem (they have a tech buff in the ancient era currently anyway).

 

[Caesar Augustus]

I'm currently thinking about changing the Babylonian UP to a few extra starting techs like Animal Husbandry or Masonry. I know it's pretty generic, but it suits them, doesn't mess up the game in the long run and sometimes generic UPs are fitting (see Egypt).

Obviously their tech rate would need to be rebalanced a little to make up for it but that shouldn't be a problem (they have a tech buff in the ancient era currently anyway).

That's actually a pretty solid idea. I would suggest Animal Husbandry and Pottery rather than Masonry to give Egypt a better shot at getting both Sphynx and Pyramids but otherwise it's an interesting idea that could really set Babylon on the right path. You could even add Archery to the mix to give them access to Asharittus earlier.

 

[Leoreth]

Sure, those two were only examples.

 

[Qiu]

I'm currently thinking about changing the Babylonian UP to a few extra starting techs like Animal Husbandry or Masonry. I know it's pretty generic, but it suits them, doesn't mess up the game in the long run and sometimes generic UPs are fitting (see Egypt).

Obviously their tech rate would need to be rebalanced a little to make up for it but that shouldn't be a problem (they have a tech buff in the ancient era currently anyway).

Agreed. I just cannot imagine the Jews had built the temple of Solomon while the Mesopotamian wasn't able to raise sheep.

 

[BenZL43]

Honestly, now I am confused where should I post this and that

Anyway,
IMO China's tech rate should be lower a bit,
Arab doesn't need a tech boost..
Instead, nerf the Europe..
As I mentioned in Synthesis.. Europe weren't that solid and united in Medieval Era..
But that'll be better if discussed in the next 1.9

 

[Leoreth]

I still don't understand where the problems with China's tech rate come from. I've increased their tech costs by 10% in the second-to-last commit and then ran some Mongol starts to compare and they were always lacking basic techs they were supposed to have at that point, like Philosophy, Literature, Civil Service.

So I reverted that change and everything looked much better: in 3000 BC, Mongolia was usually ahead of China by Machinery, Feudalism and at least one other tech, in 600 AD, they always lacked Engineering (so no pikemen). The other changes to castles and pikemen made them have wall defended cities manned with Swordsmen and Archers. I don't see how that can be too much of a foe for the Mongols.

Next focus will be on changing the Khmer to Hindu and making their UHV doable again (plans are culture / wonders / religion). But before that I'll play a game as Japan pretending to have a culture goal to see how that works.

 

[BenZL43]

I don't really know either
But every body are saying that their techs are too fast..
I played a bit and see, well there's some techs that are too early to be researched..
Like when I start as German, I was greeted by Chinese, with a Pikeman..

That's why I only recommend lowering them just a bit.. and nerf the Europe a lot so Arab and China could be the leader of the Medieval world..

Btw, I think now it's better without a single Thai civilization..
I feel pitiful for the Khmer for now they are more prone to collapse ckck..