Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[ozqar]

Well... yesterday on my Babylon game I just gave myself writing with the WB, or or two turns before the Chinese got it. I also decided to play the whole game with only one city, so disbanded Shusha (or whatever its name is) when it flipped. Babylon became super big and I actually founded both Buddhism and Zoroastrianism as I went for Monarchy. I get that me getting Buddhism was because India didn't go for it quickly enough, but, in any case, being first to get to Monarchy gives you Zoroastrianism and if it takes too long for you to get there, the Persians get Monarchy on spawn and you don't make the UHV. Had you considered this?
So, I kept with my game, built too many wonders, Persia never dared attack my city and eventually I even collapsed Phoenicia with my culture! Jerusalem and Sur were disbanded when they flipped and game went on. By the time I got Code of Laws I had already done the second and third UHV without noticing. In this particular case, they were not a problem at all. I kept on building wonders until the Arabs captured my city hahaha... but I survived well into the 800s. I could've gone longer if I had built a couple more units. I'd say also that, perhaps I was lucky. I built the Oracle, which gave me free Feudalism, I got a Great Engineer and built Himeji Castle. That protected all the improvements in my huge city radius, so I basically never had to worry about defending anything other than Babylon.

I'd say that, with the exception of the tech rate problem, the game is fairly easy for Babylon.

Also, just for the sake of every other civ, tune down the Chinese tech rate a little. It's not fun as it is.

 

[Dumanios]

I just started a 3000BC game as Korea. China managed to get both Confucianism and Taoism, India got Hinduism and Buddhism, Persia has Zoroastrianism, and Rome got Catholicism a little to early for my tastes(before I spawned). Perhaps for the Mughals, you could give them the Siege Elephant? And were you planning on adding the Seljuks?

Another thing, the Khmer vassalized to China less than ten turns after they spawned. Chinese strength really could use tuning.
Edit 2: The Confucian buildings use the Jewish sounds when they're built. And it's 790AD, and Japan has Samurai, while China has Cho-ko-nus.
Edit 3: The first goal doesn't trigger.

 

[Leoreth]

Also, just for the sake of every other civ, tune down the Chinese tech rate a little. It's not fun as it is.

Can you give me some situations that are definitely wrong so I can judge how severely they need to be nerfed? Initially I tested them by looking at their techs on Spain's spawn, and they usually were reasonably behind them.

 

[civ_king]

Can you give me some situations that are definitely wrong so I can judge how severely they need to be nerfed? Initially I tested them by looking at their techs on Spain's spawn, and they usually were reasonably behind them.

When the Mongols spawn and China has Pikeman in every city along with walls and castles...


Since South Asia is now home to two civs it needs to be buffed some more

South India minerals, place iron 1NW of the gold
The hill 1S of Varanasi should be given coal (only reason it wasn't heavily developed is because there were few factories in India)
North India iron should be moved 2E (that's where 2/3's of India's iron lies!)
Add 1 cows next to Varanasi

PS, change rice to +2 from farms, it seems wrong for the crop grow in the most populated areas of the world to have the worse food produced

 

[BenZL43]

Just played a game with German.. Lots of lag, unfortunate me >,<
IDK where's the problem is but other Civs I played always fine.. (?)

For the first time I saw French settle Bayeux on the dye..
And Babylon is the holy city for Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Confucianism. Cool!
China is OP now..
Their research is way above us..
They have researched things that supposed not to be researched yet in 840 AD..
They control lots of cities and the Silk road as well..
Korea collapsed
They are attacking Khmer, Japan and India..
They sent their Chariot long long way to Europe.. and become the first civs I contacted..
NOT France or the Vikings..

Also note that Vikings prefer attacking via walking through Finland rather sending galleys of armies via Sea like they always do historically..
*No idea if this can be worked, though*

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

If China's defenses are too high before the Mongol spawn, why not give the Mongols Cannons on spawn?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110719081806AAfLzig

The Chinese also mounted over 3,000 cast bronze and iron cannon on the Great Wall of China, to defend themselves from the Mongols.
The weapon was later taken up by both the Mongol conquerors and the Koreans.

Do you think you can justify Mongols possessing Cannons with this?
(I guess this also supports the Chinese having early Cannons too though but we can forsake that for balance)
The Mongols were known to utilize enemy weaponry in their repertoire (trubechets, hand cannons, etc.)
so Mongol Cannons/Musketmen on spawn doesn't sound so bad to me.
I'm still arguing the case that the Chinese tech rate does slow down post-Renaissance but it seems like it's proving too much for most people and I might suggest a reduction of the bonus to 15-20% or a complete shutdown of the UP post-Medieval until the Modern Era arrives if that sounds fair to anyone.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

Oh, I meant the raw +happy and +health score, before unhappiness and unhealthiness are deducted (else you'd be motivated to counterintuitively reduce Babylon's population). You'd have to compete India's and China's superior resources mainly.

While that would get rid of some of the problem, I'm not sure there are enough health buildings to offset the fact that Chinese cities in this time frame could have up to +6 from resources (Wheat, Rice, Game, Pigs, Sheep, and Fish), +2 from their grains and a Granary, +2 from Fresh Water, AND a pretty sizable (+4 or so) Forest Bonus. So we're looking at 14 health before any trading, aqueducts, or the difficulty bonus. Against this Babylon can get Sheep, Wheat, and Game, maybe Fish and Clams if they settle in Anatolia, +1 from their Granary, +1 from Hanging Gardens, +2 from Aqueduct, maybe a +1 Forest bonus if Phoenicia doesn't chop it all, and +2 Fresh Water for a grand total of 12 health. Which I admit is pretty competitive but still behind AND you've already had to ahistorically settle Anatolia. It's not so much that it's unwinnable as that it's difficult to judge as China's Forest Bonuses are going to go down with time as they chop but who knows how far along the process they'll be by whatever turn decides the UHV. Still, it's a good idea and it bears looking into.

The problem with a palace UB is that it's like a hidden bonus because it's a building you'll likely never build yourself. I'd have to look up what the Edubba did in Warlords, but that's definitely a possibility too. Let's hear some discussion first.

I guess I just don't mind hidden bonuses . I think the bonus would be more noticeable if it were something "active" like a specialist slot. It's true you wouldn't be constructing the building yourself but you'd note its existence every time you assigned a specialist you couldn't otherwise. But I'm sure the Ziggurat as a Pagan Temple replacement or the Edubba would be great changes as well.

Yes, the UP will be changed as well. Main ideas currently:

- increased wonder production
- a little crazy, but: don't allow them to build settlers and increase Babylon's city radius to three (won't be easy to implement but I guess I can steal most of it from FFH)

I'm not sure I really like the increased Wonder Production until and unless more Babylon-specific wonders are added. To complete the culture UHV you're probably already building at least the Oracle in addition to the Hanging Gardens/Ishtar Gate. Do we really want to see Babylonian Pyramids/Sphinx/Temple of Artemis/other Pantheon Wonders more often than we already do? Giving them a Wonder advantage would have an especially dramatic effect on the Greek Wonder UHV.

I agree with other posters who said that denying them the ability to build Settlers is not a great idea, as people should have the ability to play ahistorically if they so choose, but giving them an increased city radius sounds wonderful, actually. You'd probably need to readjust the terrain and resources in the area very carefully but this UP would be powerful, unique, and a fun twist on standard play. I'm really beginning to look forward to what Babylon might become!

 

[Ekolite]

Only trouble is looking at the map the city of Babylon doesn't actually get that much benefit from having an increased radius. There would definitely have to be some reshifting of resources and terrain to make it worthwhile.

 

[Dumanios]

Maybe give China the Song Spearman as a pikeman replacement. -1 Strength, but a bit cheaper to compensate. China should keep it's Cho-ko-nu if this happens. I also found out you could still hire Korean mercenaries.

 

[J. pride]

Maybe give China the Song Spearman as a pikeman replacement. -5 Strength, but a bit cheaper to compensate. China should keep it's Cho-ko-nu if this happens.

Trying to get rid of the symptoms won't cure the disease.

 

[JiimBV]

Can you give me some situations that are definitely wrong so I can judge how severely they need to be nerfed? Initially I tested them by looking at their techs on Spain's spawn, and they usually were reasonably behind them.

I see China getting conquerors far more often than before. They've been getting conquerors more than Europe, so far as I've seen.

 

[J. pride]

Leoreth can you please get rid of the current Chinese UB and UP; i mean all that was needed was a a bonus to the tech rate modifier until the renaissance but you went overboard (imo, don't take it the wrong way) and made a rather ahistorical UP and UB:

I mean the power of scholar-bureaucracy is totally bogus as Chinese bureaucracy had nothing to do with science; it was used to reduce corruption and install more competent people in the government and the military. As you can see they little to do with research except that some of them educated in school; their main task was resolving legal disputes, collecting taxes and preserving tradition and values.

Scholar-bureaucrats or scholar-officials (Chinese: &#22763;&#22823;&#22827; Shì dàf&#363 were civil servants appointed by the emperor of China to perform day-to-day governance from the Sui Dynasty to the end of the Qing Dynasty in 1912, China's last imperial dynasty. These officials mostly came from the well-educated men known as the scholar-gentry (&#32453;&#22763; sh&#275;nshì). These men had earned academic degrees (such as xiucai, juren, or jinshi) by passing the rigorous Imperial examinations. The scholar-bureaucrats were schooled in calligraphy and Confucian texts. They dominated the politics of China at the time.

Since only a small fraction of them could become court officials, the majority of the scholar-gentry stayed in local villages or cities as social leaders. The scholar-gentry carried out social welfare measures, taught in private schools, helped decide minor legal disputes, supervised community projects, maintained local law and order, conducted Confucian ceremonies, assisted in the government's collection of taxes, and preached Confucian moral teachings. As a class, these scholars represented morality and virtue. Although they received no official salary and were not government officials, their contributions and cooperation were much needed by the district magistrate in governing local areas, and received contributions from the imperial dynasty as well.

-The Power of Bureaucracy: Money put into Research, wealth, culture, spying is more effectively used; so what this means is that you don't really get a research, wealth, culture boost but your gold is more effectively used. For example, 20% on the research bar will actually have the benefit of 40% because theoretically less money is wasted due to corruption thus leading to better results.

-Can you please change the UB back to the padoga and give it a happiness and research bonus such as each priest enhances research by x% or something.

There are a lot better ways to balance the Chinese research such as actually modifying the research; that just my 2 Cents anyway.

 

[hoplitejoe]

What about for there UP that the cities can build science/culture/money from the start of the game and it converts 75% of the hammers instead of 50% or something?

 

[J. pride]

What about for there UU that the cities can build science/culture/money from the start of the game and it converts 75% of the hammers instead of 50% or something?

That sounds good too; i mean i am not arguing for my idea and i am sure you guys can think of something better but the current UP to me doesn't sense.

 

[Dumanios]

After some quick tests, even with current conditions, Mongolia is perfectly doable on Viceroy, and on Monarch if you're lucky. I'm not going to try Emperor.

 

[Ekolite]

I like the current UP/UB for China. The only thing I might suggest if changing the UB to +20% science instead of +30%.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

I just started 4 games in a row as Greece where I had already failed the tech goal at spawn. Though that may be more an indication that China needs to alter its research path than its overall speed, it is worrisome.

 

[mayor]

For the UB, I agree it's useless. Either we turn the Ziggurat into a Pagan Temple replacement (after all, it's basically the temple of Mesopotamia's ancient religion) with some extra happiness or a priest and artist slot or we return the Edubba (which was their UB during Warlords and iirc a Library replacement). Problem is that China already has one now.

to get back to Babylons UB. Why don't replace the Pagan Temple with the Tower of Babel or maybe even better replace the Palace with it (that way you ensure it is located in Babylon and it is a wonder instead of a "normal" building)
It could provide a cultural bonus and a priest slot or something like that

 

[Ekolite]

I was literally just about to post, the Tower of Babel should be added as a wonder or as something to do with Babylon.

 

[hoplitejoe]

The Tower of Babel isn't really a historical wonder.