Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[civ_king]

Whats your aim/philosophy for India? I was thinking something along the lines that the land is rich (plantation, luxury resources) and fertile (lots of food resources) but lacks production and in effect cannot defend itself. But its ur opinion that matters?

India should very very rich
"India had the world's largest economy from the first to the 18th century, with a (32.9%) share of world GDP in the 1st century to (28.9%) in 1000 AD, and in 1700 AD with (24.4%)"

India should have many resources that the Western world wants.

India should have a much larger population, much more commerce and perhaps a new UHV to model that India's economy was a specialist economy in civ terms (perhaps buffed specialists?)

 

[J. pride]

India should very very rich
"India had the world's largest economy from the first to the 18th century, with a (32.9%) share of world GDP in the 1st century to (28.9%) in 1000 AD, and in 1700 AD with (24.4%)"

India should have many resources that the Western world wants.

India should have a much larger population, much more commerce and perhaps a new UHV to model that India's economy was a specialist economy in civ terms (perhaps buffed specialists?)

What about the terrain; do u think more tiles need to be added?

 

[civ_king]

What about the terrain; do u think more tiles need to be added?

I think the amount of terrain is fine, but the Jungle on the IndoGangetic plain needs to switch to floodplains (keep grassland), this helps model India's massive population. For resources India could definitely use a couple more cotton (one in Bengal) and perhaps 1-2 gems (it clothed a large swath of the world and supplied the world's diamonds for most of history)

 

[The Turk]

What about the terrain; do u think more tiles need to be added?

No, not at all, if anything Sri Lanka needs to be buffed, and the Maldives need to be more present perhaps.

I would suggest adding some resources around Sri Lanka and removing the mountain, and replace it with a hill (like Cuba). The fact that Cuba is bigger than Sri Lanka is really wrong IMO. But its up to you, if you want to add another tile to the island.

I would also perhaps remove one or two mountains from the Himalays, and make them hills, to open up the Indus Valley (Pakistan/Afghanistan), a bit more.

Also on a separate note, Kandahar should be replaced with a city that the Safavids actually did control, like perhaps Neyshabur, or something along those lines.


@Leoreth

Could you possibly think about adding this mod to your mod:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293656&page=13

I added it to regular RFC and it looks REALLY great, and doesn't add that much space. nor does it make the game run any slower, I really suggest you include it into DoC
Also what do you think of my 2 UU idea (Past and Future)?

 

[ilduce349]

India was colonized for a reason.

In fact India was what made Great Britain the power that it was.

 

[BenZL43]

In my game as Indonesia, Islam spread too early to Indonesia..
It is at around 700 to Jakarta and 800 to Singapore..

My suggestion : Islam spread only when Indonesia had made a contact to Arab (so do to other Civs) or by certain date, like 1200AD..

I'd like to suggest a few name changes, though.. I think I made mistake in the city name I propose...

The tile that Jakarta stood today should settled with the name Sundapura, it's better if it spawn there first via Barbs.py in 400AD, and get conquered by Sri Vijaya.. (And remove 1 settler from them) Don't know if it's that easy or hard to do, I'm not sure

I'd like to suggest something to unstable Sri Vijaya by 1200AD.. probably minor Chola or coded collapse or AI mongol contact-at-war which lead to the rise of Majapahit..

<Mongol once tried to colonize Indonesia, but failed >

Also since Indonesia is an archipelago, how about NOT spawning 3 workers on the same islands?
A bit disappointed with Palembang harbor face the west Sumatra, but I think it's fine due to game play sake

 

[Leoreth]

I think the amount of terrain is fine, but the Jungle on the IndoGangetic plain needs to switch to floodplains (keep grassland), this helps model India's massive population. For resources India could definitely use a couple more cotton (one in Bengal) and perhaps 1-2 gems (it clothed a large swath of the world and supplied the world's diamonds for most of history)

I'm usually cautious against grass + floodplains, but you make a good case here. Resources sound good, too. What about the west coast? Mumbai is really bad currently, and other spots like Goa are not that good either.

In my game as Indonesia, Islam spread too early to Indonesia..
It is at around 700 to Jakarta and 800 to Singapore..

My suggestion : Islam spread only when Indonesia had made a contact to Arab (so do to other Civs) or by certain date, like 1200AD..

I can't and won't prohibit random religion spread. I'll add a more scripted spread of Islam at appropriate dates, though.

I'd like to suggest a few name changes, though.. I think I made mistake in the city name I propose...

The tile that Jakarta stood today should settled with the name Sundapura, it's better if it spawn there first via Barbs.py in 400AD, and get conquered by Sri Vijaya.. (And remove 1 settler from them) Don't know if it's that easy or hard to do, I'm not sure

Wiki mentioned Sunda Kelapa as the precursor city of Jakarta, that's why I used the name. Conquest usually won't fly because of the AI's problems with naval invasions (also, a 400 AD spawn would result in the city flipping). Many cities that are actually way older get "founded" by settlers. Almost all of Europe works that way.

Also since Indonesia is an archipelago, how about NOT spawning 3 workers on the same islands?
A bit disappointed with Palembang harbor face the west Sumatra, but I think it's fine due to game play sake

They get enough ships so that's no problem.

The harbor thing is due to the game engine that places it at the side that has most water contact. Things like that (e.g. cities being on the wrong side of their adjacent rivers) happen all the time.

 

[Leoreth]

I would suggest adding some resources around Sri Lanka and removing the mountain, and replace it with a hill (like Cuba). The fact that Cuba is bigger than Sri Lanka is really wrong IMO. But its up to you, if you want to add another tile to the island.

Why? Cuba is roughly 50% larger than Ceylon so it fits.

@Leoreth

Could you possibly think about adding this mod to your mod:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293656&page=13

I added it to regular RFC and it looks REALLY great, and doesn't add that much space. nor does it make the game run any slower, I really suggest you include it into DoC.

It looks like this is also available modular, so everyone can install it if he wants to.

 

[rogue131]

Hey haven't been on in...well forever. But I'd like to throw some two cents in if I can. The one thing that always irked me in any RFC was that later int he game when (just as in later in history) hundreds of indepedents should exist, free of outside control (like in North Africa, South America, etc), they don't. Obviously civs immediately attack these indepedents and take their land. Perhaps there can be someway to do a few things. I know it's probably tough, so I don't really put much stock in this.

1. After 1945 or construction of U.N., indepedent civs are at peace with everyone else. You can still declare war, but consider they have a defensive pact with the top three or four civs or something. Obviously mechanics need a work here.

2. Some sort of open borders possibility with indepedent civs, not sure how this one works?

Other areas of possible inclusion:

3. Constantinople should be conquered (or at least attacked) by France, Italy, and the HRE before 1204. All things being equal, maybe Constantinople (and one or two other cities) can flip to one of them in 1204, forcing the Byzantines in exile to reconquer it in 1261. Then of course, the Ottomans roll in and by 1453 (and Constantine XI) Byzantium falls. Byzantine history is a passion of mine, and it's hard to exclude both the Crusades and the Latin Empire. I wonder if, in conjuction with Rhye, all Catholic civs could have the option of crusade?

4. One thing I've always wanted was more random events, wish I knew how to do this.

5. Did we ever change the UN resolutions? For instance, when it says Global Civic Universal Suffrage, it really means Republic?


Thanks, can't wait to try out 1.73.

 

[ilduce349]

When does indonesia spawn?

 

[civ_king]

I'm usually cautious against grass + floodplains, but you make a good case here. Resources sound good, too. What about the west coast? Mumbai is really bad currently, and other spots like Goa are not that good either.


I can't and won't prohibit random religion spread. I'll add a more scripted spread of Islam at appropriate dates, though.


Wiki mentioned Sunda Kelapa as the precursor city of Jakarta, that's why I used the name. Conquest usually won't fly because of the AI's problems with naval invasions (also, a 400 AD spawn would result in the city flipping). Many cities that are actually way older get "founded" by settlers. Almost all of Europe works that way.


They get enough ships so that's no problem.

The harbor thing is due to the game engine that places it at the side that has most water contact. Things like that (e.g. cities being on the wrong side of their adjacent rivers) happen all the time.

I tried a game where I spawned at Dhaka and changed the Indo-Gangetic Plain to floodplain (except the rice), India's population still wasn't big enough...


Rivers: a river needs to end at Govapuri

Spoiler :

Mumbai needs a river and perhaps something to show the incredible natural harbor

Spoiler :

Other rivers, India is crisscrossed every which way with rivers. If it wouldn't look fugly I would definitely recommend adding a river to Sri Lanka

Resources
Silk: Pakistan has been famous for its silk wares for some two thousand years now, however the raw materials have been imported from China since then so dunno about adding it
Citrus: I have no idea how to model the massive fruit production of Goa
Grain: India could use 2-3 more rice in South India and 1-2 more wheat (more north, but anywhere works)
Gold: Add one below the Aluminium (Kolar fields, gold mine for last ~3000 years)

Sri Lanka: turn mountain into hill and put spices on the Jungle tile

Stability: Pakistan and Afghanistan should definitely be added

Terrain: if you can make a coastal tile crossable by land units without ship between India and Sri Lanka would absolutely be a candidate

 

[youtien]

As You know, Me and many other people found that China was lacking in every way so today I present you an enhanced China Map. As Ive before above; China to me represents a unique opportunity where a player (or Ai) has to adapt to a very different and rather enjoyable strategy where a player must pack cities together in order to achieve victory. The land is very fertile but you Uhvs are even more challanging (after Loereth changes them). And this is what I hope to accomplish with the map below. Now as per Leoreths request here is a screenshot of the map changes:

As a Chinese myself, I think China proper (without Manchuria, Mongolia, west region and Tibet) needs no further enhancement, now it is already strong enough. It is the west region (Xingjiang / Taklamakan desert area) that needs help. There should be more oasis, and 1-2 desert floodplains to let cities grow to 5-7. Turfan produces many food and fruits in reality, they have water from high mountain.

 

[youtien]

Completed a monarch Greece game in normal speed last night, it was hard. Conquer Egypt, Babylonia, Phoenicia and Persia in 250 bc = turn 120, that means you have only 70 turns.

I got 2 additional chariot at spawning flip, loaded them and all my hoplites to Egypt, where AI just built the Great Sphynx on turn 52, and popped an archer on then 55. Only 1 city there, the easiest scenario; if you don't conquer Egypt immidiately, they'll built a handful of army later, making it very hard to conquer.

Then Babylon, also depends on luck, I got they have only 1 bowmen and 2 warriors in Babylon, and I have 3 hoplites, lost one and won, but Ninua still have 3 bowmen fortified. I decided to ignore them until I finish Persia.

I founded Korinthos as capital, the second settler founded Salona, and I found out that I must build a settler at once, in order to have more production and wonder house. Later I settled Ankyra(on Anatolia marble). You even have no enough time to build pagan shrines, you should build wonder immidiately.

Tech: masonry - priesthood(Oracle metal casting for Colussus) - math (catapult!) - aesthetics. When Persia spawned, they give me open border because we have Babylonian as common enemy, then they sent armies to conquer Jerusalem, then I killed their remaining force and got Jerusalem. I think you have to have at least 8-10 units, including at least 3 catapults to defeat Persia, and it needs save/load too.

I finally succeed in 3rd attempt. The wonder UHV was not hard as always, and the tech UHV was easy.

 

[Leoreth]

Hey haven't been on in...well forever. But I'd like to throw some two cents in if I can. The one thing that always irked me in any RFC was that later int he game when (just as in later in history) hundreds of indepedents should exist, free of outside control (like in North Africa, South America, etc), they don't. Obviously civs immediately attack these indepedents and take their land. Perhaps there can be someway to do a few things. I know it's probably tough, so I don't really put much stock in this.

1. After 1945 or construction of U.N., indepedent civs are at peace with everyone else. You can still declare war, but consider they have a defensive pact with the top three or four civs or something. Obviously mechanics need a work here.

2. Some sort of open borders possibility with indepedent civs, not sure how this one works?

Yeah, maybe also some kind of independence movements for unstable civs as well ... but that's nothing that can't be done on a whim.

5. Did we ever change the UN resolutions? For instance, when it says Global Civic Universal Suffrage, it really means Republic?

Yes, I only haven't updated the text yet.

I tried a game where I spawned at Dhaka and changed the Indo-Gangetic Plain to floodplain (except the rice), India's population still wasn't big enough...

I wouldn't expect realistic percentages with Europe being as overpowered as it is.

Thanks for the other suggestions, they sound good.

Completed a monarch Greece game in normal speed last night, it was hard. Conquer Egypt, Babylonia, Phoenicia and Persia in 250 bc = turn 120, that means you have only 70 turns.

I got 2 additional chariot at spawning flip, loaded them and all my hoplites to Egypt, where AI just built the Great Sphynx on turn 52, and popped an archer on then 55. Only 1 city there, the easiest scenario; if you don't conquer Egypt immidiately, they'll built a handful of army later, making it very hard to conquer.

Then Babylon, also depends on luck, I got they have only 1 bowmen and 2 warriors in Babylon, and I have 3 hoplites, lost one and won, but Ninua still have 3 bowmen fortified. I decided to ignore them until I finish Persia.

I founded Korinthos as capital, the second settler founded Salona, and I found out that I must build a settler at once, in order to have more production and wonder house. Later I settled Ankyra(on Anatolia marble). You even have no enough time to build pagan shrines, you should build wonder immidiately.

Tech: masonry - priesthood(Oracle metal casting for Colussus) - math (catapult!) - aesthetics. When Persia spawned, they give me open border because we have Babylonian as common enemy, then they sent armies to conquer Jerusalem, then I killed their remaining force and got Jerusalem. I think you have to have at least 8-10 units, including at least 3 catapults to defeat Persia, and it needs save/load too.

I finally succeed in 3rd attempt. The wonder UHV was not hard as always, and the tech UHV was easy.

Thanks for the feedback. Do you think the goal is too luck based? I actually don't want to give them any additional units because that interferes with Rome too much.

 

[comrade francis]

Hi, now that the trading company system is going to be implemented, it should represent the european establisment along indian coast, and later china, maybe giving spices or other luxuries.

 

[J. pride]

Other rivers, India is crisscrossed every which way with rivers. If it wouldn't look fugly I would definitely recommend adding a river to Sri Lanka

Resources
Silk: Pakistan has been famous for its silk wares for some two thousand years now, however the raw materials have been imported from China since then so dunno about adding it
Citrus: I have no idea how to model the massive fruit production of Goa
Grain: India could use 2-3 more rice in South India and 1-2 more wheat (more north, but anywhere works)
Gold: Add one below the Aluminium (Kolar fields, gold mine for last ~3000 years)

Sri Lanka: turn mountain into hill and put spices on the Jungle tile

Stability: Pakistan and Afghanistan should definitely be added

Terrain: if you can make a coastal tile crossable by land units without ship between India and Sri Lanka would absolutely be a candidat

1)Sure Ill put silk in northern Pakistan
3) I planned on putting grains like that.
4) Gold sounds good.
5) Terrain change to Ceylon sounds good.
6) Actually quite the opposite; there are parts of Pak/Afg that are in India core area while there are parts of southern and northern India that are not; That to me looks stupid. Talking about this point; I had a few ideas.

After Im done with the map; Leoreth can you make India spawn at 500 BCE (the time Indian civilization actually took shape) in Pataliputra or Ujjain. Currently they spawn in 3000 bc as the IVC (Indus civilization) which is very dumb considering that India spawns in Delhi. Thats like representing the Turks and Hittites as the same civilization even worse since the two (most of the time) occupied different regions and we no little to nothing about the IVC.

That said I would like to propose that u add the city of Taxila on the map; Taxila was an important ancient city that can represent Persian, Indian and Greek influence in the Af-Pak region. You should marginally increase the Ai war map for the region for all three civs so the likeliest scenario would go something like this: Persia spawn and takes over Taxila; India spawns and conquers Taxila from them and if the Greeks expand this far they take Taxila from India/Persia. Afterward when the Arabs/Safavids/Mongols conquer the city it should be renamed into Peshawar, Kabul or Lahore (depending on the location u choose)

 

[Algor Mortis]

I'm working on making a few more practical suggestions for Japan, and so far I've come up with this:

I would suggest adding some decent strength barbarians who spawn in about 600 A.D. up until 1000 A.D. The Japanese had several conflicts with the people known as the Emishi, who are often thought to be the precursors to the later Ainu peoples in northern Honsh. I think there should be at least some resistance to early Japanese expansion north.

The second suggestion concerns the map changes I was thinking about earlier. After some thought and fiddling about in worldbuilder, I think there are just a few very minor changes I would advise. I would change the plains in Kyushu (The southernmost part of Japan) to grassland, and add fish one west of the gold. I also would remove the coal from Hokkaido as you said earlier, and replace it with a crab one north of that. The last thing would be another fish for Edo, I placed it two north of the current fish, although that may not be necessary.

Also I believe Japan should not have near as high a research rate until the 1860's.

The only other thing I would think of changing are the UHV's, which I believe you (or someone) have mentioned before.

Hopefully those are a bit more useful/realistic!

 

[ilduce349]

Algor, if they have such a low research rate prior to 1860, it will be impossible for them to:
1) complete their historical goal
2) be the world power they were just 70 years (~35 turns) later.

 

[J. pride]

The second suggestion concerns the map changes I was thinking about earlier. After some thought and fiddling about in worldbuilder, I think there are just a few very minor changes I would advise. I would change the plains in Kyushu (The southernmost part of Japan) to grassland, and add fish one west of the gold. I also would remove the coal from Hokkaido as you said earlier, and replace it with a crab one north of that. The last thing would be another fish for Edo, I placed it two north of the current fish, although that may not be necessary.

Japan already has a very high population early on; I dont think its a good idea to further enhance it; ive seen Japanese cities reach population 11 very early on in the middle ages

 

[ilduce349]

I placed that same fish for Edo.

Edo was historically a massive city, and Tokyo has 36 million people in it today. With the current resource placement I just can't see that happen.