Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

[Farm Boy]

From your lips to the ears of my my most progressive, reluctant to vote countrymen

Being a shill that has picked up some populist autocratic taking points does not a Bernie make.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Very strange to me that Harris has charted this course, choosing Walz over Shapiro and now articulating a socialist economic policy. Historically Democrat candidates run to the center after clinching the nomination. I can't imagine the voter she is courting that wouldn't already vote Democrat. Perhaps it is just a strategy designed to maximize turnout of the base. Or alternately, she is so confident that "just not being Trump" is such a cinch that she can actually turn the country fully into the socialist wind and has the luxury of just being "in your face" about it.

Third possibility is that neither she nor her campaign staff knows of the necessity of courting the middle.

At any rate, she has now shut the door to some who might have voted for her. Self-limiting it seems to me but, yeah, I am old, and the younger generations may just not understand the ramifications of that sort of economic policy. Young people do seem to have to make their own mistakes rather than learn from the mistakes of the past. Might as well have Bernie Sanders atop the ticket.

Since 1969 the US has had 8 recessions. Nixon accounts for 2, Carter started one in 1979; the following 5 all started under Republican presidents: Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2 x2 and Trump. Why would anyone want to elect another Republican president? And the GOP recession story goes back even further to Nixon x2. So I ask you, whose economic policies are better? In every case the Dems bailed the country out of GOP failures.

"Historically Democrat candidates run to the center after clinching the nomination..." Historically the GOP doesn't run a total idiot and criminal for president. BTW, are you aware that Trump could not a job as school bus driver because of his criminal record? We do not entrust our children to felons and yet you and others want to entrust the country to a 34 times convicted felon. How smart is that?

 

[Voidwalkin]

I dunno. I think she's hitting most of the right notes. Recent comments against price gouging, landlords, these are the sorts of things I think she needed to do. Cost of living was in there, too.

I think she's gonna take PA, WI, and ...probably MI if she keeps singing that song. Swing voters gonna love it.

Doubt Trump has any reply. It would need to kneecap her personally, because those are winning stances. He might try social policy, but I think he's made all the MAGA voters he's gonna be able to given time constraints.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In NC the GOP governor candidate is a total looney loser and he might even make NC more purple enough to go blue this time around. @Core Imposter are you supporting Robinson for governor? Stein's coattails might even carry Dems into the Senate and House.

What does the polling say?

 

[Angst]

Price controls, no, that's just pure communist/socialist stuff that doesn't work.

firstly, europe.
secondly, so you're against artificially cheap gas? like, as it is right now? an incredible amount of sectors have their price regulated, stuff you have bickered about aaaall around this thread and elsewhere. this is not a novel concept in a capitalist society.

 

[Core Imposter]

firstly, europe.
secondly, so you're against artificially cheap gas? like, as it is right now? an incredible amount of sectors have their price regulated, stuff you have bickered about aaaall around this thread and elsewhere. this is not a novel concept in a capitalist society.

Europe exists in what is for now an artificial state. European security depends on the US defense budget. Europe was "pacified" by the second world war. In every direction one looks Europe has supports of one kind or another that has created a state that is not natural to the world and can only be considered sustainable if the assistance it gets from outside itself continues. This is a nice state to exist in, but you can't design a real economic model on a colonial construct, which Europe essentially is. European socialism would have to survive exposure to the real world before you could understand what it would transform into.

Keep in mind that the United Nations is an illusion that will someday melt away in the next iteration of what is to be. All of it is a temporary order. Even the US itself is on an unsustainable path. All of historic civilization has rested on "taking" one from another. No equilibrium has ever existed and only capitalism has been able to produce sustained growth without coercion, conquest and blood.

 

[Angst]

Europe exists in what is for now an artificial state. European security depends on the US defense budget. Europe was "pacified" by the second world war. In every direction one looks Europe has supports of one kind or another that has created a state that is not natural to the world and can only be considered sustainable if the assistance it gets from outside itself continues. This is a nice state to exist in, but you can't design a real economic model on a colonial construct, which Europe essentially is. European socialism would have to survive exposure to the real world before you could understand what it would transform into.

Keep in mind that the United Nations is an illusion that will someday melt away in the next iteration of what is to be. All of it is a temporary order. Even the US itself is on an unsustainable path. All of historic civilization has rested on "taking" one from another. No equilibrium has ever existed and only capitalism has been able to produce sustained growth without coercion, conquest and blood.

sounds very spooky. very afraid of being invaded by morocco or something.

anyways, answer the second part, if you mind, y'know, the one about regulated prices you like and don't like at the same time.

 

[Core Imposter]

Sometimes we get fixated on the little bits at our fingers and lose sight of the really important stuff. JD Vance is a visionary and we are lucky to have him around.

Both of my parents were one of eight children. My generation was just about replacement level. My kids are not going to replace themselves, mostly because I have one daughter-in-law who had an abortion with her first husband and is now not able to have kids as a result of that process. Our civilization and culture is evaporating.

We are going the way of the elves of Middle Earth and the barbarians that will replace us are barely civilized. This is the one single biggest problem we have, and Vance is one of the few politicians brave enough to speak about it. I think he can see it so clearly because he lived through the destruction of the culture in which he was raised. We are entirely too self-centered and selfish. We need to get a clue. Instead of dithering on a solved problem like climate change, we need to buckle down and start contributing to civilization by starting families or the result will be something along the lines of that suffered by those civilizations of which we know little of but the ruins left in jungles.

 

[choxorn]

capitalism has been able to produce sustained growth without coercion, conquest and blood.

 

[Cutlass]

Greg Sargent/
August 17, 2024
MAGA FAIL
Brutal New Poll for J.D. Vance Reveals a Big Trump-MAGA Weakness
They’re unpopular because their agenda is unpopular.

No vice presidential running mate in recent memory has been scrutinized in quite the way that J.D. Vance has. Because he presents himself as an intellectual standard-bearer of the MAGA movement—and has a long trail of public statements that crystallize the movement’s views in rather colorful terms—scrutiny of Vance has gone well beyond the usual oppo-research digging, resulting in unusual media curiosity about his genuinely held philosophy and worldview.

That’s why a major new poll of the two vice presidential candidates is so notable. The survey—which breaks down public perceptions of them in demographic detail—suggests Vance’s style of right-wing populism may have a long way to go to achieve the broad-based appeal that its proponents have long hoped for. It’s often said that Trump chose Vance to maximize the ticket’s appeal to non-college white voters, but doing so may come at a steep price with other voter groups among whom Trump must improve if he wants to win.

The poll—from The Washington Post, ABC News, and Ipsos—finds that overall perceptions of Vance are far more negative than those of Governor Tim Walz. While 42 percent of Americans view Vance unfavorably and 32 percent view him favorably—putting him 10 points underwater—Walz is viewed favorably by 39 percent to 30 percent. That’s a net difference of 19 points.

Even more striking is how various groups see Vance:

He is viewed favorably by only 24 percent of independents, versus 39 percent unfavorably.
He is viewed favorably by only 23 percent of self-described moderates, versus 41 percent unfavorably.
He is viewed favorably by only 22 percent of 18- to 39-year-olds, versus 44 percent unfavorably.
He is viewed favorably by only 32 percent of women, versus 40 percent unfavorably (interestingly, Vance fares a tad worse among men).
He is viewed favorably by only 28 percent of Hispanics, versus 39 percent unfavorably.
He is viewed favorably by only 9 percent of Blacks, versus 50 percent unfavorably.
He is viewed favorably by only 32 percent of suburbanites, versus 42 percent unfavorably.
He is viewed favorably by only 33 percent of college-educated whites, versus a striking 55 percent unfavorably.

By contrast, Walz is viewed positively on net by those groups—though his favorable ratings are clearly not high enough among them yet.

Unsurprisingly, Vance is viewed positively by non-college whites (+9 points), rural voters (+13 points), and white evangelicals (+37 points). This is the trade-off that Trump made in picking Vance: Brimming with certainty that he would win by a landslide before Vice President Kamala Harris became the Democratic candidate, Trump chose a running mate who would juice his base, with little concern about his lack of appeal to voters outside it. That hubris, a key weakness of MAGA, has, by encouraging the Vance pick, seemingly produced a serious mistake.

This trade-off was not supposed to be necessary. After Republican Glenn Youngkin won the 2021 Virginia gubernatorial race on a propagandistically named “parents’ rights” platform, some right-leaning thinkers began dreaming that strategically packaged, right-populist anti-woke politics might gain serious ground among constituencies outside the core MAGA coalition. Vance is supposed to be this project’s next big success.

Indeed, Vance-style right populism is supposed to help cement a whole new Republican and center-right coalition, as Brian Beutler details in a good piece. In this account, the Democratic Party has been taken over by woke leftism, contempt for “traditional” families, and radical ideas on immigration and crime. That created an opening for a right populism that unabashedly defends draconian immigration restrictions on communitarian and nationalist grounds and uses aggressive government policy to promote large “traditional” families and privilege them over non-“traditional” ones. Pair that with renunciation of the GOP’s standard pro-plutocrat, anti-worker agenda, and you’ve got a winning formula—or so the theory went.

There is evidence that perceptions of progressive excess in the Democratic Party may have caused some erosion among certain nonwhite working-class constituencies. But now the full range of Vance’s own extreme views is emerging. His immigration skepticism has shaded into forms of “great replacement theory.” His views about the virtues of childbearing have curdled into a demand that All Good Citizens must contribute many more birth children toward solving long-term demographic woes, which apparently cannot be addressed through immigration, managed judicially in the national interest.

True, Vance probably would not tweet something quite like this:
… but Trump’s campaign did, and as Beutler points out, Vance is more or less on board with the underlying vision it represents. All these tropes—dramatically slashing immigration, propelling women into maximal childbearing, unleashing culture-war fury on non-“traditional” families—interlock into something larger than the sum of its parts, a form of ethnonationalist natalism. Those who don’t agree that those elements are critical to maintaining their chosen vision of our country’s long-term identity, strength, and vitality—and don’t do their part in that regard themselves—are shirking their highest duty to the nation.

Many non-MAGA voters—especially among Latinos, moderates, independents, suburban women, and so forth—are probably reachable with certain right-leaning arguments about crime, border disorder, and woke excesses. But the ethnonationalist-natalist vision of our citizenship duties goes too far, and surely alienates them as well. When Democrats denounce Vance as “weird,” it’s shorthand for disgust at that worldview—and large swaths of those constituencies likely agree.

To be fair, Vance has more time to improve his image, as large percentages of voters still have no opinion of him. But, his “weirdness” aside, there’s no denying that he is a very articulate and capable spokesman for MAGA’s various ideological obsessions. And so, if he cannot sell these ideas in an attractive way, it doesn’t bode well for those dreaming that they will one day gain wider appeal.

 

[Cutlass]

"I haven't seen anything like this": GOP pollster says Harris took massive "advantage" from Trump
Trump appears to have "lost control" and donors fear he's "committing political suicide," says Frank Luntz
By Nicholas Liu
Published August 15, 2024 10:14AM (EDT)

Veteran GOP pollster and political strategist Frank Luntz told CNBC's "Squawk Box" on Wednesday that Vice President Kamala Harris, riding a surge of enthusiasm surrounding her candidacy and bringing in people uninterested in supporting either former president Donald Trump or President Joe Biden, has changed the pool of voters who will decide the November election. If trends continue in this direction, Luntz suggested, Democrats may not only win the presidency and retake the House, but also cling on to the Senate despite a lopsided map that favors Republicans.

"The people who were undecided have all collapsed towards Harris. The people who were weak Trump have all collapsed towards undecided. It's a broad shift," Luntz explained. The previously disenchanted voters Harris is adding to her coalition might not amount to more than a one- or two-percent change in the electoral pool. But that's enough to tip the election for Harris, he said.

Recent polls show Harris now tied or leading Trump in most battleground states, a swift and dramatic reversal in fortune from the closing weeks of Biden's struggling campaign. Luntz, wary of potential inaccuracies and undercounting of Trump supporters, has also relied on voter focus groups to understand the thoughts and feelings behind shifts in polling. Now, they're being "broken up by young women saying 'I'm not voting for [Trump] anymore.'"

"I'm trying to do a focus group tonight with undecided voters under the age of 27 for a major news outlet, and I can't recruit young women to this because they don't exist as undecided voters," Luntz said.

The increasingly dismal situation for Trump was no given; according to Luntz, Harris is surging against electoral headwinds, not with them.

"The issues and conditions favor Donald Trump. He should be winning this election. But the attributes are so much in Harris' favor that he's not," he said, pointing to Trump publicly backing Elon Musk's decision to fire striking workers as an example of the former president needlessly alienating the same voters he's been trying to poach from the Democratic coalition. "It's as though he's lost control. And I know there are billionaires who watch this show who are spending a lot of money on Donald Trump, and they don't understand why he's committing political suicide."

Meanwhile, Harris is still enjoying the momentum that has been building since she entered the race in late July. "She's got an intensity advantage. She's got a demographic advantage," Luntz said. "And I haven't seen anything like this happen in 30 days in my lifetime."

 

[Narz]

We should raise the limit on social security tax and super wealthy people shouldn't even draw benefits. Those are common sense positions. Likewise, we should guarantee some benefits to encourage people to overcome. For example, disability, people should be able to earn up additional income without the risk of losing the base benefit. Just phase out the benefits at some level of earning and guarantee the benefit as a safety net. We have tons of people who have a disincentive to overcome their disability.

Agree

firstly, europe.
secondly, so you're against artificially cheap gas? like, as it is right now?

I definitely am.

In England where fuel is expensive you don't see nearly so far absurdly large personal vehicles.

Zero reason why gas/petrol has to be so cheap.

 

[Angst]

It's not Morocco that's a heavy fatass, it's the Danish. And others.

How often have you seen a doctor in the last couple years? I mean, money is imaginary until it's not. I don't have the luxury of imagining there's somebody else lined up for my son when I shuffle off.

i'm curious as to what you mean by lines. like, i actually don't know what your question entails. i think's it's imagining eu healthcare is slower? i could pull up the fact that the general idea of european slow healthcare is generally made up (unless you're talking about the uk, i believe, but i may misremember; they've had issues). if you have something threatening, you will be given a treatment immediately. if you have something you can wait for, there's a longer wait. just seeing a doctor in denmark (to discuss something you may have) is usually same or next week after a phone call. hospital runs for critical things are instant, with a potential line, but you will be seen over the day.

if you ask personally, sure. i have a roster of medical issues and as such have been seeing a doctor a lot the last few years. seeing the doctor after calling happens same or next week. depending on the seveverity/minutiae of what i need done, the treatment/reference can be immediate (ear cleaning i had for something severe), done a week later (blood test, requires ordering equipmentt and all), or done up to months later (i needed a brain scan). i've seen doctors probably 10 times this year. until recently, i barely saw doctors, and even with less focus on my from the healthcare system, was literally the same experience with the supposed lines.

in general, the wait is literally only longer for non-critical treatment, and it's far, FAR cheaper, with the same general quality.

if your son has something chronic but not surprise hospital visit demaning, he'd see waiting times depending on the equipment requirement and such. really depends on the invasiveness of the issue and what's needed to treat it. same if he's a regular joe. if there is icu-level things, chronic or not, he'd receive immediate attention when needed. it's really not that complicated. if you have a basic idea of what care is necessary at a timescale, you can literally superimpose that as to what you can expect in the eu. if he needs immediate treatment, you can expect him to get it. if it's a less invasive issue or something noncritical that is treated over years, you can expect some wait.

and again. we're cheaper than you are.

 

[Angst]

I definitely am.

In England where fuel is expensive you don't see nearly so far absurdly large personal vehicles.

Zero reason why gas/petrol has to be so cheap.

oh i mean sure. the point is that ci wants no regulation and wants regulation at the same time, because it's communism and not communism at the same time.

 

[IglooDame]

It's unfortunate you wrote "higher purpose".

It's tragic they lose their lives because it's their job. It's tragic because in humanity there's a job that means sacrificing yourself while sacrificing other people because of tribalism. The tragidy is the inability of humanity to co-exist.

edit: The tragedity is misspelling tragedy.

Agreed about the tragedy, but based on everything I've read, people doing heroic/sacrificial things on the battlefield are generally doing those things to save their friends, not for God and Country. That's still higher purpose. The person going into the burning building to save people knowing there's a decent chance they themselves won't come back out is a higher purpose. We can come up with plenty of other examples, but I think you get the idea.

And if you think Donald Trump is mulling the nuance of human tribalism that results in the tragedy of individuals sacrificing themselves in this way when he says that dead soldiers - Medal of Honor winners or not - are suckers and chumps, then we've gone from tragedy to farce.

 

[Lexicus]

Agreed about the tragedy, but based on everything I've read, people doing heroic/sacrificial things on the battlefield are generally doing those things to save their friends, not for God and Country. That's still higher purpose. The person going into the burning building to save people knowing there's a decent chance they themselves won't come back out is a higher purpose. We can come up with plenty of other examples, but I think you get the idea.

And if you think Donald Trump is mulling the nuance of human tribalism that results in the tragedy of individuals sacrificing themselves in this way when he says that dead soldiers - Medal of Honor winners or not - are suckers and chumps, then we've gone from tragedy to farce.

A good % of people who win a Medal of Honor win it posthumously, IIRC.

 

[Lexicus]

From your lips to the ears of my my most progressive, reluctant to vote countrymen

I Am a Disappointed Biden Voter Who Was Told He’d Immediately Implement Communist Rule

Well, they say you should never trust a politician, and it seems I’ve been duped. I consider myself to be a high-information voter. I follow a vari...

www.mcsweeneys.net

 

[Sommerswerd]

I Am a Disappointed Biden Voter Who Was Told He’d Immediately Implement Communist Rule

Well, they say you should never trust a politician, and it seems I’ve been duped. I consider myself to be a high-information voter. I follow a vari...

www.mcsweeneys.net

Don't lose heart Comrades! According to my reliable FOX News sources, Comrades Kamala Harris and Tim Walz will surely bring on the Communist Socialist Radical Leftist Peoples' Workers' revolution that you've been waiting for!! Even better than Bernie Sanders!!! The International Union will unite the human race!!!

 

[Birdjaguar]

I wonder how many new votes Taylor Swift would add to the national total? And in the swing states?

Hollywood heads to Chicago for the Democratic convention, as Beyoncé and Taylor Swift speculation swirls​

...Swift – who has yet to make a presidential endorsement this election cycle – is in the midst of a five-night run of shows in London to cap off the European leg of her “Eras Tour.” The superstar wraps at Wembley Stadium on Tuesday, or Day 2 of the convention, meaning she could theoretically be in Chicago by Wednesday for the final two nights.

Swift recently fueled fan theories that she had already endorsed Harris when a woman’s silhouette pictured onstage behind her appeared to depict the vice president. But CNN debunked that theory last week, reporting that the silhouette in question was one of Swift’s background singers.

Swift’s army of fans – the Swifties – never miss a beat, and this week’s convention will be no different. Even without Swift, her presence will be felt through her fans in Chicago.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/09/entertainment/harvard-study-celebrities-elections
As part of the convention’s “DemPalooza” – public events and trainings – the Democratic National Committee announced there will be spaces where attendees can make friendship bracelets. Beaded bracelets are often traded between Swift fans at her concerts – inspired by the lyrics to “You’re on Your Own, Kid” from the singer’s album “Midnights.”

There’s also Swifties for Kamala, a substantial coalition of Swift fans who organically mobilized online on the night that President Joe Biden dropped out of the race endorsed Harris in July. Swift is not affiliated with the group. Irene Kim, who co-founded the group alongside fellow Swiftie Carly Long, said the Harris campaign has been in touch. “They reached out to us asking how they can support in our initiative,” Kim told CNN. Kim also told CNN she was invited to the Democratic convention as a content creator, along with another member of Swifties for Kamala, but said she won’t be able to make it to Chicago.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/18/politics/hollywood-dnc-beyonce-taylor-swift-speculation/index.html

 

[Sommerswerd]

I wonder how many new votes Taylor Swift would add to the national total? And in the swing states?

Hollywood heads to Chicago for the Democratic convention, as Beyoncé and Taylor Swift speculation swirls​

...Swift – who has yet to make a presidential endorsement this election cycle – is in the midst of a five-night run of shows in London to cap off the European leg of her “Eras Tour.” The superstar wraps at Wembley Stadium on Tuesday, or Day 2 of the convention, meaning she could theoretically be in Chicago by Wednesday for the final two nights.

Swift recently fueled fan theories that she had already endorsed Harris when a woman’s silhouette pictured onstage behind her appeared to depict the vice president. But CNN debunked that theory last week, reporting that the silhouette in question was one of Swift’s background singers.

Swift’s army of fans – the Swifties – never miss a beat, and this week’s convention will be no different. Even without Swift, her presence will be felt through her fans in Chicago.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/09/entertainment/harvard-study-celebrities-elections
As part of the convention’s “DemPalooza” – public events and trainings – the Democratic National Committee announced there will be spaces where attendees can make friendship bracelets. Beaded bracelets are often traded between Swift fans at her concerts – inspired by the lyrics to “You’re on Your Own, Kid” from the singer’s album “Midnights.”

There’s also Swifties for Kamala, a substantial coalition of Swift fans who organically mobilized online on the night that President Joe Biden dropped out of the race endorsed Harris in July. Swift is not affiliated with the group. Irene Kim, who co-founded the group alongside fellow Swiftie Carly Long, said the Harris campaign has been in touch. “They reached out to us asking how they can support in our initiative,” Kim told CNN. Kim also told CNN she was invited to the Democratic convention as a content creator, along with another member of Swifties for Kamala, but said she won’t be able to make it to Chicago.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/18/politics/hollywood-dnc-beyonce-taylor-swift-speculation/index.html

Taylor Swift was never going to endorse Biden. Too old and too questionable whether he could actually avoid a blowout loss. She wasn't going to potentially alienate so many of her fans for that.

I think the possibility of her endorsing Harris is higher, I also think she has the ability to motivate a non-insignificant amount of people to vote.