Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

[stfoskey12]

That is your perception of, and it may be correct depending upon where your "here" is.

More generally I tend to disagree on this. I think that most voters know import tariffs will put up prices.
And many may think it a worthwhile price to try to reverse the de-industrialisation of western countries.

Where I live (UK), the problems are housing costs, utility costs, getting a job, not the cost of phones.

In the US utilities aren't too bad and unemployment is low. Housing costs are a problem, in large part due to NIMBYs at the state and local level. If blue states committed to loosening zoning and permitting laws, allowing more housing to get built, those states could unlock major economic growth.

 

[aelf]

I think that's the general gist of what Trump's saying. At least what sone people ate hearing.

I'm not sure they realize prices will go up and if they're willing to pay them.

I do remember consumer goods cost a lot more but housing and the basics were comparatively cheap.

Personally I think luxuries like phones could cost more if the basics are fixed. I don't think Trump will fix things but he's at least talking about it.

And yeah it was the Democrats who signed Nafta.

With Trump don't listen to what he says. Pay attention to what he's talking about. Specifics don't matter eg build that wall.

You seem misinformed about how Trump supporters actually think.

 

[Zardnaar]

You seem misinformed about how Trump supporters actually think.

The truly devoted I'm looking at the swing from 2020. Voters democrats had.

This is how Trump wins. He won't solve crap imho but the Democrats are out to lunch on communicating with men for example. Hell white women.

 

[Gorbles]

Hell white women.

My dude in the other thread you literally just talked about that Harris website where they don't feature men explicitly. The same page features women explicitly.

Can't be the same thing now, can it?

 

[Estebonrober]

That is your perception of, and it may be correct depending upon where your "here" is.

More generally I tend to disagree on this. I think that most voters know import tariffs will put up prices.
And many may think it a worthwhile price to try to reverse the de-industrialisation of western countries.

Where I live (UK), the problems are housing costs, utility costs, getting a job, not the cost of phones.

I'm just going by what people responded to exit polls. I could be in a bubble, but I think most here dramatically inflate the political acumen of the working class in America. I'm reading about shocked machine shop workers when they are told that these policies will be raising prices.

Imo true internationalism is done through good diplomacy between contries, and mutual help towards the good of all.

The US suffers two huge problems, and I only talked about one in the context of tariffs because I lacked (and lack now) the time to go into the other. But in short, it has:
- the liberal/capitalist problem - an oligarchy without a nation, "citizens of teh world" who expect to be able to move their assets intantly (all that liquidity provided by financial markets, how they love both these things so much) to another country. And thereforw will seer to exploit each and every place they can get their beaks into, iunto collapse. I'm going with the giagnt vampire quid image. Including the countries they originated in.
- the imperial bureaucracy problem, which could easily be seen in the terminal days of the British empire, but can be seen in pretty much every empire even before their end. A whole class of people whose careers and socila position depend on there being imperial insteretss to manage, on behalf of the state. These, unlike the first, care about having a strong state. But the kind of state they need is a huge drag on the national economy, and all the empire can provide is financing by, indirectly, forcing those foreign populations under empire p«mannagement to pay tribute.

The way these two combined produced what the US is now. Sorry, I will try to write something clearer about these things later. But what I wanted to say is that tariffs, simply, won't work for the US. To strenghten the state and salvage the imperial capabilities the US would have to put an end to the ease with which the capitalists can move their loot to other countries. But to do so would break the tribute system the empire depends on. And to quit the empire would put an end to the liberal ease to do ecconiomic hit-and-runs.
That is why US politics has been without a proposed solution for known structural problems. There must be people who see them. There is just to way to fix one thing without blowing the other. And everybody in a position of power has been in either the capitalist caste or the imperial caste. Each caste knows it's running out of time but can't save itself by sacrifing the other. A change can't come from these two groups.

I do not disagree with any of this in principle. I do not believe the US is salvageable in its current construction, it will require a tear down to be fixed, that reality is even more true as of this week. This has been a primary political concern for a long time for me, trying to find a way to see a light at the end of the tunnel (not for me or mine today but for all of us in the distant future). I used to think capitalism had a part in our future, but I'm becoming more and more certain it incentivizes the worst behavior so powerfully that only abandonment seems rational. (I read a thread recently with a geologist oil engineer talking about how great the Trump election will be for them but how conflicted he was about continuing to work in the field anyways, because of the climate and the wars...he wanted out and that's a rare thing from my PoV, generally people seem fine doing great harm to others and even themselves if they are separated jsut a degree or two from the messier parts and many do not even realize their jobs result in death and destruction around the world).

 

[Estebonrober]

The truly devoted I'm looking at the swing from 2020. Voters democrats had.

This is how Trump wins. He won't solve crap imho but the Democrats are out to lunch on communicating with men for example. Hell white women.

white women are notoriously racist and conservative... you should hear the conversations I hear in the great ******** that Missouri has become.

the Democrats managed to lose 13 million voters. I think that was the most consequential fact. I had to be strongarmed into voting for Harris because of the threat Trump represents to some of my old high school friends and deportation back to countries they've never lived in really.

 

[SemiLazyGamer]

Vance says US will pull support for NATO if EU tries to regulate Musk's platforms

JD Vance says US could veto NATO if Europe tries to regulate Elon Musk’s platforms

Republican vice presidential nominee says ‘Germans and other nations’ – not Russia – would ‘have to fund Ukraine’s reconstruction’

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Voidwalkin]

I used to think capitalism had a part in our future, but I'm becoming more and more certain it incentivizes the worst behavior so powerfully that only abandonment seems rational.

I don't think humanity is capable of any other economic system.

I suppose you'd have to change humanity.

I'm just going by what people responded to exit polls. I could be in a bubble, but I think most here dramatically inflate the political acumen of the working class in America. I'm reading about shocked machine shop workers when they are told that these policies will be raising prices.

I tend to agree. My dad has 28 years in manufacturing. He thinks tariffs will help and they may, for some. He doesn't realize there'll inevitably be industries and sectors harmed in retaliation, though. Thinks America has more leverage than it does. We could adjust, but short term pain is gonna be felt, unavoidably.

Didn't vote. Think his last was for Obama. The "ban porn" line in 2025 reignited old skepticism on conservatism. Doubt he'd ever vote for Harris, though. He and others tried organization. He believes it failed because Hispanic workers didn't get on board. Language barrier, he says. Doesn't support immigration, doesn't really like Dems post-2016 Bernie.

Seems pretty representative to me.

 

[Strong Reaction]

My dude in the other thread you literally just talked about that Harris website where they don't feature men explicitly. The same page features women explicitly.

Can't be the same thing now, can it?

I think the point is that the majority of white women voted for trump. I mean both can be true at the same time right? Not enough outreach/ male representation and even though they do reach out to women, they fall short with white women.

 

[Ajidica]

Vance says US will pull support for NATO if EU tries to regulate Musk's platforms

JD Vance says US could veto NATO if Europe tries to regulate Elon Musk’s platforms

Republican vice presidential nominee says ‘Germans and other nations’ – not Russia – would ‘have to fund Ukraine’s reconstruction’

www.independent.co.uk

I find it hilarious when people get butthurt about Europe 'not paying into NATO' or when America threatens to leave NATO. Like, NATO exists so we can control European security policy. It isn't because we actually think Belgium will be a major help when the Russkies try to send the First Guards Tank Army through the Fulda Gap!

 

[Strong Reaction]

Vance says US will pull support for NATO if EU tries to regulate Musk's platforms

JD Vance says US could veto NATO if Europe tries to regulate Elon Musk’s platforms

Republican vice presidential nominee says ‘Germans and other nations’ – not Russia – would ‘have to fund Ukraine’s reconstruction’

www.independent.co.uk

Well Musk spent over 130 million on the Trump campaign, of course he is going to defend him. For an ivy league guy he sure does contradict himself a lot. “I’m not going to go to some backwoods country and tell them how to live their lives,” Then proceeds to tell them how to live their lives, and threatens to pull NATO support if they don't fall in line.

 

[amadeus]

Like, NATO exists so we can control European security policy.

And our foreign policy goal is to keep Europe strong enough to not be immediately overrun by the Russians, but weak enough not to assert itself contrary to our interests inside our sphere of influence.

Great Britain’s foreign policy goal is to remain deluded they still have the influence of empire.

France’s foreign policy goal is to keep its colonies in Africa in check.

Germany’s foreign policy goal is to keep its colonies in Europe in check.

Italy’s foreign policy goal is not to be laughed at.

We like to keep a happy balance.

 

[Ajidica]

And our foreign policy goal is to keep Europe strong enough to not be immediately overrun by the Russians, but weak enough not to assert itself contrary to our interests inside our sphere of influence.

Great Britain’s foreign policy goal is to remain deluded they still have the influence of empire.

France’s foreign policy goal is to keep its colonies in Africa in check.

Germany’s foreign policy goal is to keep its colonies in Europe in check.

Italy’s foreign policy goal is not to be laughed at.

We like to keep a happy balance.

What was the saying about NATO?
It exists to keep the Americans in, the Germans down, and the Russians out.

 

[Angst]

Vance says US will pull support for NATO if EU tries to regulate Musk's platforms

JD Vance says US could veto NATO if Europe tries to regulate Elon Musk’s platforms

Republican vice presidential nominee says ‘Germans and other nations’ – not Russia – would ‘have to fund Ukraine’s reconstruction’

www.independent.co.uk

in that case, i'm retrospectively glad my country switched irt being part of the eu military.

anyways, yea, this is literally insane. so they try to use ukraine as a bargaining chip to secure funding for musk? it's already started lmao

 

[Farm Boy]

I think I have been screaming that your pork farmers need to get a gun or two. It's not like the Russians are using a moral compass, here.

Bear in mind the percentage of men who think "they're pretty when they cry."

Before you think that's "too ****ed up"" remeber whose ethnic heritage was given up/erased. Their sympathetic ability will be reduced

 

[Gorbles]

I think the point is that the majority of white women voted for trump. I mean both can be true at the same time right? Not enough outreach/ male representation and even though they do reach out to women, they fall short with white women.

Which means the existence of a word on a website doesn't actually necessarily mean anything. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. But it's a classic example of correlation !== causation.

 

[EvaDK]

For anyone thinking that US corporations would support a war of tariffs or trade upon the US biggest trade partners, read up on how that went the last time Trump attempted that in 2016-17, to score some brownie points among his base. And Musk will not be dictating US security or trade policy. Musk - and Vance may think he will, but he won't.

 

[Farm Boy]

Howzabout the Kennedys finally getting a grasp on the vaccine health of the nation again? Better living through chemistry, right?

 

[Arakhor]

Well, with Chevron repealed, because SCOTUS apparently believe that judges know better than federal agencies, whatever "Brainworms" Kennedy does can now be challenged in court.

 

[Estebonrober]

I don't think humanity is capable of any other economic system.

I suppose you'd have to change humanity.

I tend to agree. My dad has 28 years in manufacturing. He thinks tariffs will help and they may, for some. He doesn't realize there'll inevitably be industries and sectors harmed in retaliation, though. Thinks America has more leverage than it does. We could adjust, but short term pain is gonna be felt, unavoidably.

Didn't vote. Think his last was for Obama. The "ban porn" line in 2025 reignited old skepticism on conservatism. Doubt he'd ever vote for Harris, though. He and others tried organization. He believes it failed because Hispanic workers didn't get on board. Language barrier, he says. Doesn't support immigration, doesn't really like Dems post-2016 Bernie.

Seems pretty representative to me.

lmao at the not capable of any other system... Capitalism in its current form has only been around for a couple of hundred years... but yes, human culture must change, or we will all die. "I am inevitable", says Das Capital.