pre-release info Greece - Antiquity Age Civilization Discussion

pre-release info
This is the latest I could find on the general internet referencing the study I saw in brief in one of my Archeology magazines:


To summarize, this data is from a more recent study done in Germany that referenced a much wider range of linguistic samples. From this article, it appears that the tentative conclusion was that Proto-Indo-European originated about 6000 BCE in the south Caucasus/eastern Anatolia region and from there spread in all directions: west into eastern Anatolia and ultimately Greece and the Balkans, north to the Pontic Steppe from which a secondary spread took it into central Europe several thousand years later, and east into (modern) Iran and India.
From the article:
This data then underwent a Bayesian phylogenetic analysis
Yeah, this is the part I was discussing as a methodological issue that has largely contributed to the decline of support for the Anatolian hypothesis (along with mounting linguistic and genetic evidence for the Kurgan hypothesis). Bayesian analysis just isn't good linguistics (and has also led to other nonsense theories like Nostratic, Altaic, or Greenberg's notorious "Amerind." NB Greenberg was not a crackpot, just completely out of his depth when it came to American languages.)
 
This is the latest I could find on the general internet referencing the study I saw in brief in one of my Archeology magazines:


To summarize, this data is from a more recent study done in Germany that referenced a much wider range of linguistic samples. From this article, it appears that the tentative conclusion was that Proto-Indo-European originated about 6000 BCE in the south Caucasus/eastern Anatolia region and from there spread in all directions: west into eastern Anatolia and ultimately Greece and the Balkans, north to the Pontic Steppe from which a secondary spread took it into central Europe several thousand years later, and east into (modern) Iran and India.

That might be what I was thinking of. I’m not sure. I thought it was saying that Yamnaya came after Anatolian split from the rest of like a pre-proto Indo-European somewhere in or near the Caucasus. (Sorry for the edits. I’m way out of my domain with this stuff.)
 
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From the article:

Yeah, this is the part I was discussing as a methodological issue that has largely contributed to the decline of support for the Anatolian hypothesis (along with mounting linguistic and genetic evidence for the Kurgan hypothesis). Bayesian analysis just isn't good linguistics (and has also led to other nonsense theories like Nostratic, Altaic, or Greenberg's notorious "Amerind." NB Greenberg was not a crackpot, just completely out of his depth when it came to American languages.)
This is the first I'd seen that they used Beysian Analysis in the study, and it bothers me, too, but their tentative conclusions seem to have been largely based on the linguistic and genetic database. Unfortunately, the basic study was done in Europe and is not readily available to me - not being a member of the academic community with a University behind me, I'd have to pay major subscription fees to get access to even on-line versions of the relevant journals.
 
I’m not trying to closely read both articles and tease the differences right now. :lol: I’m way too out of it!
 
Firaxis has knocked it out of the park with the unit variety. Hoplites have even transverse crests on their Corinthian helmets, something that I haven't spotted before in pre-release videos and images of the unit. One can view it as a nod to the Phalanx Greek unique unit from Civilization IV too. Among the helmets Greek Commanders wear, I think there is a Phrygian helmet with face protection (one of the most beautiful ancient Greek helmets). Firaxis also changed the Greek Empire's text to include Alexander and Macedon (perhaps, foreshadowing that both will be added in the future). I'm going for that preorder, Firaxis you have won. :D

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Civ VII is going with the 'classic' image of the Hoplite in bronze 'muscled' cuirass, Corinthian enclosed helmet, metal greaves and Aspis round shield. As it happens, that was also the earliest image of the Hoplite, whose panoply and equipment changed dramatically over the next 350 years or so.

First to go, as near as we can tell from the evidence, was the bronze cuirass, which frankly wasn't that good as protection: sheet bronze thick enough to actually stop a thrust from a heavy spear was both heavy and dangerously hot in a Greek summer sun. At that time or right afterwards the helmet began to 'open up' to give better vision and hearing to the wearer. Then the bronze greaves were replaced by leather protection or none at all.

By the beginning of the Macedonian War that largely ended Greece as a separate set of states, the 'Hoplite' might not even be carrying his distinctive big round shield - versions of the Theuros, or elongated oval shield borrowed from the Thracians to the north were frequently substituted, the torso was protected by a linen or canvas armor (the linothorax, which could be up to 5 - 7 layers of canvas, leather or stiffened linen thick), and the only metal armor left was an open-faced helmet of the Phrygian or similar style (which, in fact, was sometimes replaced by a cap of felt, leather or wool: if heavily padded it could stop a blow from a club or mace as well as any metal helmet, and was a lot more comfortable in that Greek summer). In fact, except for generally smaller round shields and the pike as a primary weapon, the Greek hoplite was indistinguishable from Phillip's and Alexander's Pezhetairoi Macedonian infantrymen.

BUT making the in-game Hoplite indistinguishable from a potential adversary's primary infantry would be very confusing to almost every gamer out there except those few of us that got stuck with a degree in Classics, so the game rightly chose to show the definitive Hoplite even though in reality he only existed for a century or so - in Civ VII, he's likely to be around a lot longer . . .
 
Civ VII is going with the 'classic' image of the Hoplite in bronze 'muscled' cuirass, Corinthian enclosed helmet, metal greaves and Aspis round shield. As it happens, that was also the earliest image of the Hoplite, whose panoply and equipment changed dramatically over the next 350 years or so.

First to go, as near as we can tell from the evidence, was the bronze cuirass, which frankly wasn't that good as protection: sheet bronze thick enough to actually stop a thrust from a heavy spear was both heavy and dangerously hot in a Greek summer sun. At that time or right afterwards the helmet began to 'open up' to give better vision and hearing to the wearer. Then the bronze greaves were replaced by leather protection or none at all.

By the beginning of the Macedonian War that largely ended Greece as a separate set of states, the 'Hoplite' might not even be carrying his distinctive big round shield - versions of the Theuros, or elongated oval shield borrowed from the Thracians to the north were frequently substituted, the torso was protected by a linen or canvas armor (the linothorax, which could be up to 5 - 7 layers of canvas, leather or stiffened linen thick), and the only metal armor left was an open-faced helmet of the Phrygian or similar style (which, in fact, was sometimes replaced by a cap of felt, leather or wool: if heavily padded it could stop a blow from a club or mace as well as any metal helmet, and was a lot more comfortable in that Greek summer). In fact, except for generally smaller round shields and the pike as a primary weapon, the Greek hoplite was indistinguishable from Phillip's and Alexander's Pezhetairoi Macedonian infantrymen.

BUT making the in-game Hoplite indistinguishable from a potential adversary's primary infantry would be very confusing to almost every gamer out there except those few of us that got stuck with a degree in Classics, so the game rightly chose to show the definitive Hoplite even though in reality he only existed for a century or so - in Civ VII, he's likely to be around a lot longer . . .

It's the traditional Firaxian look of the Hoplite, and personally I like that they keep sticking with it, since it's my favourite. Portraying a unit during its heyday when it was dreaded on the battlefield is the correct way. *During its prime, the hoplite wore the bell cuirass (Archaic era and early Classical), the muscle cuirass (Classical and early Hellenistic eras), the linothorax (Classical and early Hellenistic eras) and a bare exomis (Classical and early Hellenistic eras) while carrying Boeotian (Archaic era) or Argive shields (Classical and early Hellenistic eras). Firaxis correctly chose the muscle cuirass that surpasses the others in beauty. The linothorax with metal plates, scales or bare linen (Humankind went with a linothorax, and I wasn't a fan) has possibly non-Greek origins and was used by other civilizations too (Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, Carthaginians, Etruscans), a testament to that is the armour's use by the Immortal in the game. The bell cuirass could have been used instead of the muscle cuirass, but the muscle cuirass is the evolved elaborate version of the bell cuirass. The exomis was popular during the Peloponnesian War where mobility was key, but the Slingers and Archers wear it in-game already (rightly so). I have to say here, that the muscle cuirass never disappeared completely after the Peloponnesian War, and its use rose again during the Theban Hegemony for reasons that can only be speculated. For the shield the Boeotian could have been chosen instead of the hoplon, or even a combination of both but not only the hoplon is more recognizable to the wider public who immediately associates it with the hoplite, but also the Purabettarah and Immortal units have wicker Boeotian-looking shields, so the Boeotian shield was omitted.

If the Hoplite had been portrayed during its final days of the 2nd century BC (having evolved by then to the Thureophoroi and Thorakitai) wearing either a chitoniskos or a combination of chitoniskos and mail armour while carrying a thureos which by the way was gradually adopted after the Gallic Invasion of Greece, then the unit would have looked identical to some other non-unique units in the game. Roman units (horseman and standard-bearer) have been spotted with lorica hamata, and the thureos is carried by Independent Celtic units as well as Roman Tier 1 Warriors. Some uniformity in the same unit isn't always a negative, either. If the unit had a combination of Illyrian, Corinthian, Chalcidian, Attic, and Pilos helmets (earlier hoplite), or a combination of Pilos, Phrygian, Thracian, and Konos helmets (later hoplite), it would have looked less impressive in my opinion. But still there is a lot of variety in Civilization VII, since the exquisite Corinthian helmets have three versions of crests! The tall archaic crest, the widely used common crest, and the rarer transverse crest.

Generally, If a unit changed slightly its armour, shields and helmets after gaining a tier, that would have shown some form of warfare evolution, which it would have been more historical, but we will let Firaxis reach that level of realism in a future iteration of the series. Even then, the Hoplite is one of those units that by having identical soldiers inside the same unit is always a positive because it appears to be made of a walking wall of men of bronze or automatons, the terrifying image the Greeks wanted to present to their enemies (other Greeks or barbarians).

*Note that I added the early Hellenistic era as the heyday of the hoplite because the hoplite phalanx was still strong and capable on the battlefield then (even if it wasn't dominant) and the infamous late classical and early hellenistic elite Hypaspists were essentially a hoplitic unit. See the use of hoplite phalanxes as either flank protection to the more immobile Macedonian phalanx or as a second line to guard the rear of the pike phalanx and to reinforce the phalangites in case a gap is created in the line and also observe how the confrontation at Chaeronea between the Macedonian phalanx and the Theban-Athenian phalanx wasn't so one-sided as some think (the battle was lost when the inexperienced Athenians broke the cohesion of their line in order to pursue the Macedonians which resulted in a complete rout aside from the Theban Sacred Band).
 
The only thing I'd add is that the phalanx of Greeks and a phalanx-like unit of Thracians (with long spears and probably Theuros shields) formed the flank protection and rear line of Alexander's army formation at Gaugamela. The Thracian phalanx and less than 1000 light cavalry held off and tied up over 10,000 Bactrian and Scythian cavalry on Alexander's right until the reinforcements sent to them opened a hole just to the left of Darius in the Persian center - right in front of the Companion Cavalry led by Alexander. It is not appreciated in most reconstructions of the battle how important the work of the flanking forces (in this case, all but the 600 Prodromoi light cavalry non-Macedonian) was in drawing off and causing the Persian line to unravel before the decisive charge by Alexander at the head of the Agema.

However, one correction: Asclepiodotus' work on Tactics makes it plain that the pike-armed 'phalanx' could move and maneuver very fast when necessary, in open ranks to cover rough ground, normal order for combat and close order to defend against a heavy enemy. As the examples from the later Swiss pike blocks showed, any pike phalanx that stood immobile was basically giving up most of the shock effect of their deep formation and could be cut up by almost any other type of infantry force. To be mobile, however, requires that the pikemen get a chance to train and practice together as a group formation, which in turn requires that they are full-time soldiers and paid - something that is expensive and therefore avoided by governments whenever possible. In this respect, Phillip's getting the silver mines south of Macedon to finance his professionalizing of the Macedonian infantry force was critical in giving him and his son an army that could take on everthing from Greek hoplites to Persian cavalry to Indian elephants to Scythian horse archers and beat all of them.
 
Does that make this the first Civ game ever without a "Swordsman" unit?
 
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