How to get a job (or not)

[Birdjaguar]

Ack, use pdf, no docs.

Email content usually a blurb highlighting why they should read your cover letter. Also a good place to put a link to your online portfolio, linkedin, etc.

PDFs are fine too. I'd rather say less in the email to get them focused on the cover letter that I've so carefully crafted.

Links in the email will again distract them from reading the letter and may take them to a place where they will discover something to disqualify you. Why send them to Linked in when they can read your letter and see your resume immediately? If you have information at Linkedin that is better than what is in your letter or resume, then why isn't in you letter or resume?

Keep the reader focused.

 

[Zelig]

Why pdf's?

So the formatting doesn't get mutilated.

PDFs are fine too. I'd rather say less in the email to get them focused on the cover letter that I've so carefully crafted.

Links in the email will again distract them from reading the letter and may take them to a place where they will discover something to disqualify you. Why send them to Linked in when they can read your letter and see your resume immediately? If you have information at Linkedin that is better than what is in your letter or resume, then why isn't in you letter or resume?

Keep the reader focused.

By blurb I mean only a couple lines. You probably shouldn't link to places that will disqualify you. I don't actually use/like linkedin, but I find it convenient if a candidate links to all the applicable things that he/she has on the web in the email, so I can see all of those, as well as the attached files from a single location (the email). If you're linking to design portfolios, github accounts, etc., it's important information that doesn't fit the format or length of a cover letter or resume.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Such links are great if you are hiring, because they reveal more information about the candidate. But as a candidate, I want to control access to my information as much as I can.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Here is a cover letter I used some time ago:

Dear Ms. ….,

Thanks you for your time on the phone today. I’ve attached my resume for your review. You’ll see that except for the “experience with ….", my qualifications are an excellent match for the ….. position.

I have an MBA from one of the country’s top programs (U. of NC at Chapel Hill). I have started, grown and sold two companies. For each I developed the business plan and had to implement it. I have an excellent grasp of how plans translate into real world action and the experience to assess the probability that the resources are sufficient for success.

My experience is not limited to a single arena. In addition to exceptional marketing skills, I have worked in manufacturing, consulting, retail and wholesale businesses. I have done so at levels of responsibility that involve significant work in strategic planning, budgeting, financial analysis, operations (including hardware and software planning), sales and human resources.

But it’s not only rigid analysis on an Excel spreadsheet that determines success. Business plans involve people. Good people with a poor plan will usually fail. A great plan poorly executed also has little chance of success. Synchronizing the right people with a good plan is crucial to any successful business venture.

On a practical level, I have produced catalogs, selected products, bought raw materials, made sales calls, managed customer service, manned trade show booths, shopped trade shows, written budgets and planned at every level. I know the questions to ask and where to look for the answers.

I am excited about the possibilities of working with ….. and look forward to meeting with you and your associates to discuss in more detail how I might contribute to your success.

Best regards,

I got the interview and got the job.

 

[The_J]

When sending an application by email should you paste your cover letter into the email body or attach it as a word doc?

I've gone with attachements, because it should be considered that
a) the email recipient might not be the person who has to do the final evaluation of the application (e.g. goes first through HRM, who make the basic sorting, then it comes to the person who makes the real decision)
b) in case you have other stuff too (resume, certificates), then it will get messy connecting these things to a random email (amount of data might make organizing things difficult; therefore also all in one file and not multiple ones)
c) email inboxes have probably a size limit, and emails might get deleted after downloading the attachements

Not sure if there are considerations into the other direction.
(also not totally my own thoughts, read a bit about it before)

 

[Mise]

One of my friends had a job offer from a consultancy firm, which he's accepted. They sent him a health questionnaire, which I presume is for medical insurance. It asks him if he has ever used recreational drugs. Should he say "yes"?

 

[J-man]

One of my friends had a job offer from a consultancy firm, which he's accepted. They sent him a health questionnaire, which I presume is for medical insurance. It asks him if he has ever used recreational drugs. Should he say "yes"?

If he has never used recreational drugs he should say no

Is an employer allowed to ask that question in the UK? Because in the Netherlands an employer isn't (whcih some exceptions).

 

[Mise]

Pretend he has used recreational drugs

Whether they're allowed to or not, they've asked it! He already has the offer, and I believe the contract has been signed though I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

One of my friends had a job offer from a consultancy firm, which he's accepted. They sent him a health questionnaire, which I presume is for medical insurance. It asks him if he has ever used recreational drugs. Should he say "yes"?

Depends on whether or not he is going to need some security clearance or will be investigated in any way. If he will be investigated for any reason (or even if it's likely he will) then he needs to be honest to begin with. If there is no chance he will be looked into, then lie away. Also, if he has a criminal record related to drugs (even if it's in the distant past), honesty is the best policy because they may dig it up.


But if they are going to just run a criminal record type of check (not a 'contact your neighbors from 7 years ago') and he has no drug-related criminal offences on his record, then he should lie.

Cool! What questions did you use?

*What's the biggest change your group has gone through in the last year? Does your group feel like the recession is over and things are getting better, or are things still pretty bleak?
*If I get the job, how do I earn a "gold star" on my performance review? What are the key accomplishments you'd like to see in this role over the next year?

I was going to ask other questions but ran out of time and the whole interview went so well it was overkill. I hope I get called back for a second interview.

So....cover letters...anyone have some kind of ideal for # of paragraphs, topics covered and such things?

Are you sure you need one? I have no idea what it's like for lawyers, but for engineering interns/co-ops/new grads, I have been advised against even including a cover letter. The reason is that for engineers, though HR personell make the final call, really the decision is up to other engineers on the project as to who gets hired. And they have told me (I have contacts in a few big companies) that for entry level or internship type jobs, they won't even read a cover letter nor care if one exists.

But again, it cold be different for lawyers.

I always attached it as a word doc, but that was back a number of years and all the online application processes may have supplanted that.

Online applications can really mangle any current resume or cover letter you have. Remember my 'resume' I solicited help for a few pages back? That is nothing like my 'real' resume and isn't nearly as good format-wise. But I had no choice in the format and many online application websites won't simply let you upload a resume, you have to enter stuff into text fields that they provide and subsequently have no control over the format. It's frustrating.

Ack, use pdf, no docs.

Email content usually a blurb highlighting why they should read your cover letter. Also a good place to put a link to your online portfolio, linkedin, etc.

You should never ever ever send a doc. Even if they are using Microsoft Office to open your doc, you can't guarantee that it is the same version as yours nor can you guarantee their user settings, so it could open in a really funky way on their screen.

A pdf is a pdf and the format won't get screwy.

As for supplemental type material, I've heard differing views on that. Some have recommended it, others have blasted it as a bad thing. I'm up in the air on it.

 

[ace99]

Pretend he has used recreational drugs

Whether they're allowed to or not, they've asked it! He already has the offer, and I believe the contract has been signed though I'm not 100% sure on that.

If he's never been arrested and there's no record of it say no. This isn't Mi6 he's applying to I'm assuming.

Does your group feel like the recession is over and things are getting better, or are things still pretty bleak?

I've been told not to ask this. I was prepping for an interview the AG's office and I asked this at the practice interview and career services told me that it's better not to ask things like that because they might be offended.

Are you sure you need one? I have no idea what it's like for lawyers, but for engineering interns/co-ops/new grads, I have been advised against even including a cover letter. The reason is that for engineers, though HR personell make the final call, really the decision is up to other engineers on the project as to who gets hired. And they have told me (I have contacts in a few big companies) that for entry level or internship type jobs, they won't even read a cover letter nor care if one exists.

But again, it cold be different for lawyers.

Pretty sure I do need a cover letter.

 

[CKS]

When I've been on hiring committees, most applicants have been eliminated on the basis of what is (or is not) in their cover letter. Unless the cover letter suggests the person would be a good fit, I won't even look at the rest of the application. I'd strongly recommend always having one. If no one reads it, you lose nothing but a little time spent thinking about how well you match the position's requirements (which you should be doing anyway). If someone wants one but you don't have one, your application gets immediately trashed.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Ok so I have a question about accepting job offers. If you have a multiple interviews and one leads to a job offer before the other interviews take place and you are asked to decide immediately, should you turn it down if it's not your first pick job? Or should you accept and then later decline it if you get a better offer from another job?

I have an interview this Thursday and I'm still waiting to hear back from Boeing for 22 other jobs that I'd rather have. Boeing should call me for at least one of those 22 jobs literally any day now. However I'm just worried I may be put in a position where I have to make a decision on a job I'd take but wouldn't be thrilled about before I even interview for other jobs. This goes for the Boeing jobs as well - some of them I really really want while others are just ok and so I'm worried about getting call backs for some before others.

What should I do if I find myself in that situation?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

My first interview is tomorrow and I'd appreciate some feedback on my (potential) conundrum.

 

[Old Hippy]

My first interview is tomorrow and I'd appreciate some feedback on my (potential) conundrum.

I'd take the job, or at least give that impression, you must have seen something you liked about it when you applied, just have a handy reason to knock it back later if your other choices come along, so as to still be able to apply at that firm again, without a black mark against you...

 

[Mise]

Are you going though an agency or are you dealing directly with the company?

If it's an agency you can be a little more honest and say that you're waiting to hear from another interview before you can decide. If it's direct with the company you can try putting them off for as long as you can. Just say it's a big decision and you need to talk it over with your wife/family/etc.

 

[ace99]

Oh good I was looking for this thread.

So I did 2 rounds of interview at this firm, then they called me showed me around the building, introduced me to people and told me that I would be contacted shortly with an offer.

So my question at this stage of the process is how do I conduct salary negotiation? It seems very awkward to ask for more money, I was always raised to never talk about money. I'm loathe to even ask about salary.

Fortunately it seems that I will be mailed the offer which will spare me from having to do this face to face.

So how do I go about doing it? Suppose Douche, Durban, Deutch and Dick LLP offers me $900000 and I want $1200000 , do I just write them and be like "Hey thank you for the offer but I'm worth $1200000 because I can do XYZ for the firm."

Is that how it works? God, I'm cringing as I type that.

Edit:

Wait no looks like it'll be in person or by phone....greeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttttt

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I'd take the job, or at least give that impression, you must have seen something you liked about it when you applied, just have a handy reason to knock it back later if your other choices come along, so as to still be able to apply at that firm again, without a black mark against you...

The job I am interviewing for I only applied for because they listed they were 'hiring all engineers' and I need experience, period. Turns out it's for an electric company and the job is to travel around Illinois and demonstrate welding equipment for high schoolers to drive sales. Because of my background in politics (giving speeches, selling agendas, etc) they are interested in at least talking to me.

It's not a job I even want but like I said I just need some sort of co-op or internship technical experience. This isn't relevant to my degree but it's better than nothing. However, I would pass this up (if they make me an offer) for literally any other offers that may come my way. While I am fairly certain I will get other offers, I don't know with 100% certainty. I don't want to turn this down on the off chance I might get another offer that could then not materialize.

At the the same time, I don't know how big of a dick move it is to take a job offer and then back out. It could even be up to a month after I accept that I have to back out - I have no way of knowing when Boeing will call me other than it will have to be within 30 days or so (I hope - if they drag it out longer than that then the internships I applied for will turn into co-ops because they'd start cutting into the school year).

Are you going though an agency or are you dealing directly with the company?

Directly with the company I believe.

If it's an agency you can be a little more honest and say that you're waiting to hear from another interview before you can decide. If it's direct with the company you can try putting them off for as long as you can. Just say it's a big decision and you need to talk it over with your wife/family/etc.

Yeah and that's what I hope to do, I am just worried they will want an answer very quickly. My wife got a job offer once where she had to accept or decline that day and it was an extremely difficult call because it's wasn't a great offer and she had other prospects but nothing firm as of that day.

Which is where I am at, unfortunately. The way Boeing internships work (so I'm told) is that by the time you get an interview, they've already decided to hire you and are basically just going through the formalities. At this point there are a few jobs (including my dream job) that I applied for that stopped accepting applications over a month (or more) back. That tells me they're extremely interested and I will get a call for at least one of them since I'm up for so many....

Argh sorry I'm just repeating myself. I hate the waiting game and I hate this uncertainty. I don't want to make a bad decision but I have limited information.

Edit:
Sorry ace99 I don't know what to tell you. But I am interesting in hearing what others have to say about your question.

 

[downtown]

I have never done a salary negotiation by mail, and I'm not aware of any of my clients doing that before. I also suspect that norms are different by industry.

The one recommendation I would have is to make sure you have as much information as possible. Glassdoor is a good website to give you ballpark salary figures for experience, job title and geography, although they are others.

If the proposed salary is in line with the average, you can try haggling for a little more, but I think that depends a lot on the company and industry, so I wouldn't be comfortable giving specific advice. If the job is similar to your last job, I'd prob ask for a 6-10% raise though.

 

[ace99]

I think its by phone actually.

 

[Old Hippy]

At the the same time, I don't know how big of a dick move it is to take a job offer and then back out. It could even be up to a month after I accept that I have to back out - I have no way of knowing when Boeing will call me other than it will have to be within 30 days or so (I hope - if they drag it out longer than that then the internships I applied for will turn into co-ops because they'd start cutting into the school year).

I do that sort of dick thing all the time, "sorry, but a really good opportunity just came my way, out of the blue", I'm good at sounding sorry.... trouble is they often offer more money, which gets my goat up, as it implys they were willing to let me work for them for peanuts in the first place, so I have no problems leaving, but I do try to give fair notice... and have even gotten calls, up to a year latter, to see if I will come back, god knows why