If abortion is wrong, why is it justifiable in the case of rape?

[emzie]

So basically, congrats on getting raped, now you get to stare at the offspring for 18 years? Congrats on doing nothing to deserve this bad occurence, but its just your bum luck?

Sorry, that doesn't jive

I do not understand how posters here can say "If you are a woman and you are raped, sorry, you must have the rapist's kid." That is basically saying "I'm sorry you got shot Mr. Innocent Bystander, you'll have to pay for your own hospital bill" or "I'm sorry your car was hit by a drunk driver. You'll have to foot your own bill"

A woman has every right to abort a fetus that was unwillingly, violently, forcefully, created through an act of rape. Unless you think God's will is done by a rapist.

It seems you're unable to separate your opinions about abortion from the thread. I'm vehemently pro-choice, so it's not like the idea of depriving any woman the right to an abortion (El_Mac lined out my views rather well) doesn't jive with me.

If we assume the foetus is a person, the circumstances of conception are immaterial. An adult conceived by rape is no less a person than an adult conceived by a consensual act. In this sense, there's no distinction on the question of "what is human" between an embryo and yourself.

 

[kulade]

Unless you think God's will is done by a rapist.

Hmm... well actually come to think about it I don't recall Mary giving consent...

 

[Counterclaw]

Hmm... well actually come to think about it I don't recall Mary giving consent...

Actually, she did

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

 

[Berzerker]

and if alexander fleming's mother had aborted we would have no penicilin.

seriously, dont be stupid.

Does that mean she wouldn't have been justified in aborting him, therefore Hitler's mother would not have been justified either? You didn't answer the question

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Actually, she did

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Plus, there was of course no sex involved in said conception. The view that God was the physical father in the manner of various Greek gods and their demigod children is very heretical.

 

[kulade]

Actually, she did

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

The guys was omnipotent; I'm sure she felt under the pressure. She probably knew she couldn't outrun him.

 

[holy king]

Does that mean she wouldn't have been justified in aborting him, therefore Hitler's mother would not have been justified either? You didn't answer the question

even if you do believe in fate: you cant determine what would happen to a person that never gets born.

in other words:
hitlers mother wouldnt have aborted hitler had she aborted. do i really need to explain that?

 

[El_Machinae]

While canceling your credit card might not save this orphans life, it is not a violation of her right to life.

The cancellation of the credit card is not what is killing her, rather, it is her starvation and the events leading up to it. Furthermore, if I cancel my card, you can always steal another, so I don't but that canceling the card necessarily leads to the orphans death. Or perhaps it is your inability to feed the orphan via legal means. Surely, if you can steal a credit card, you can steal a few big macs.In any case, your example is not at all comparable.

With abortion, we are talking about a direct violation of a person's most basic and most important right. You are deliberately taking away the life of another human being. It WOULD be comparable if it read as follow:

If a starving woman steals your credit card and puts a burden on you by limiting your financial choice and freedom, do you have the right to kill her?

Now, I do think it would be immoral to cancel your card if you knew it was the only thing keeping someone alive. But I think your comparison is a bad one.

This thread is asking about rape-babies, so that's why I used my specific example. My example is designed to highlight the question of whether someone can force someone else to be the life support for a third party, and whether you can withdraw your (stolen) resources even if you knew it would kill someone.

It cannot be a perfect analogy, because there's nothing analogous. Can you be made into a life-support device for someone, against your will? Can you, essentially, be enslaved by someone else?

The majority of abortions are done at a stage where the fetus cannot be safely withdrawn from the woman. Now, in my mind, a woman has the right to withdraw her resources (from the orphan or from the fetus), because she never consented to become the life support device for those two.

You can cancel your payments & blame someone else for the orphan's death. The woman only has one way of 'canceling her payments'. If we're going to force her to be the life-support for the fetus until it is viable, then we're going to be giving rape-victims C-sections at 25 weeks, and then risking having mentally disadvantaged premies.

 

[gangleri2001]

It's not. The fetus is not guilty, let him live. If the mother doesn't want to rise him, she should give him in adoption.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do you have any trouble with the raped woman having to bear this rape baby for nine months constantly reminding her of her ordeal?

 

[gangleri2001]

Do you any trouble with the innocent fetus?

 

[Camikaze]

Do you have any trouble with the raped woman having to bear this rape baby for nine months constantly reminding her of her ordeal?

Do you any trouble with the innocent fetus?

It's a matter of compromise. But seeing as the fetus is innocent to the point of unconsciousness, it would seem to make more sense to lean towards the outcome for the fully developed and conscious person, who is probably the best to judge the most beneficial outcome for themselves (and hence overall) in this circumstance. That is, giving them the choice.

 

[gangleri2001]

So you lose your right to life when you're unconscious? Ok, tongiht I'm gonna tell my family that it's OK to kill me when I sleep.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do you any trouble with the innocent fetus?

Thanks for the ... answer. I will answer your question though, and hope you will answer mine after I do.

I do not have any trouble with the innocent foetus as long as I am convinced the foetus has no awareness, which only develops after week 20. That's why I would think a rape victim is examined whether conception has taken place (not sure if this is the case) and determine if the woman became pregnant as a result so the effects of the rape can be taken away as soon as possible.

 

[Camikaze]

So you lose your right to life when you're unconscious? Ok, tongiht I'm gonna tell my family that it's OK to kill me when I sleep.

Interesting proposition. Although there is an obvious difference, perhaps made more obvious if I choose a better word. Unaware. The fetus has no memory, and nothing, in fact, to remember. Nor will it be aware of its fetal stage when it is aware of other things. You could call it an unaware state of existence. When you go to sleep, however, you are aware of your sleeping state when you awake, and have memory of past events. That's probably a horrible way to distinguish between the two, but it's a start. You get the idea.

 

[El_Machinae]

The mental state of an early fetus is equivalent to that of a sperm.

 

[JerichoHill]

No-one's suggesting that the woman be forced to raise and look after the baby. There is such a thing as adoption.

Is the relief to the rape victim of not having to give birth really worth killing a foetus? Really its a question of how much value you place on the life of a semi-developed human foetus. Some people say a foetus is a human life, plain and simple.

I personally can't say either way, but to me its life is at least worth something and I get very concerned when I see the sheer numbers of abortions carried out (a million a year in the US). It seems to me that there's a lot of people out there who just don't think it's worth anything at all.

Abortions are declining in the western world. When they are made illegal, back-alley abortions rise and more women are killed via coathanger (or whatever). Human life is worth alot, but I cannot fathom forcing a woman to carry a baby to term that was created in a state of violence and hate. Maybe it is because I have several female friends who were raped, so I understand a bit more than most about how utterly devastating that life event is.

 

[JerichoHill]

If we assume the foetus is a person, the circumstances of conception are immaterial. An adult conceived by rape is no less a person than an adult conceived by a consensual act. In this sense, there's no distinction on the question of "what is human" between an embryo and yourself.

No, I understand that about it being a person. However, we disagree that the circumstances are meaningless. I attach a meaning to the circumstance.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do you have any trouble with the raped woman having to bear this rape baby for nine months constantly reminding her of her ordeal?

Gangleri, I answered yours, please answer mine

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Interesting proposition. Although there is an obvious difference, perhaps made more obvious if I choose a better word. Unaware. The fetus has no memory, and nothing, in fact, to remember. Nor will it be aware of its fetal stage when it is aware of other things.

Although it is very uncommon, there actually are individuals who remember their own birth and even the conditions within the womb before birth. Most of these are twins as the interaction with another fetus gives them more to remember.