Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[sherbz]

Roll on the vote. Im sick of all the lies.

I think the sad irony is that people equate the EU with some of the pitfalls of globalisation. The truth is that the EU acts as a counterweight to many of globalisations more unpleasant aspects. It sure isnt perfect, but it does at least guarantee a certain level of workers rights and also protection for consumers.

I am voting in. I am not a Europhile. But i simply cannot stomach backing a blonde haired buffoon, and someone my mum, who is a teacher, thinks is the Devil walking on earth (Michael Gove). And thats to say nothing over Nigel Farage.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I speak English, read English, write English; and when I am asleep I dream in English.

I am English and British first, a citizen of the world second. As for being European,
some of my ancestors came from the North European plain, but basing wider loyalty
on DNA seems dubious. I feel that I share nothing more with people from European
countries than I do with people from others e.g. Canada, the Philippines or Uganda.

All I want is for me and my children to be able to vote for an English (or, if the Scots
and Welsh remain agreeable, a British and if the Northern Irish wish a UK) parliament
and government that will meet in Britain and have sufficient the minimum meaningful
authority/sovereignty to pass laws and to manage the country, that I can,
together with the inhabitants of these islands, hold to account.

I don't want to trade that for a vote every four years for a party list for 1/7 of the
European Parliament when real power clearly remains with the EU Commission,
unelected Councils and judges etc. fronting for a greater German co-prosperity zone.


The problem with the unification of Europe under German leadership in the 21th
century, following the principles used to unite the German States in the latter
19th century (start with customs treaty, centralise power, ignore complaints
and then further centralise telling recalcitrant they are too small to stand alone);
is that it will inevitably go to their head and be vulnerable to Napoleonic takeover.

Self determination for England is my cry!

Sadly it looks as if the bemused timid here will elect to stay in the big German
cooking pot, because it is nice and warm, and they are afraid to jump out of it.

Expect to be safely dead before they invade Russia/China/Middle East etc.

I very much preferred Wernher von Braun who wanted to invade Mars.

 

[Gorbles]

The EU hasn't stopped anything the Tories have passed in the last year, so I really don't understand why people think the EU does stop these things.

The current government have done a bang-up job on passing a wide variety of things in the name of "austerity" including slashing local council funding, university funding, NHS staff wages (frozen, I think), disabled benefits, OAP benefits and probably more things besides.

If the EU had the power people seem to think it does, surely none of these things would've gone ahead. Unless the EU was in complete agreement with said strategies, in which case why do you object if they share the same goals as the current ruling party?

 

[sherbz]

I speak English, read English, write English; and when I am asleep I dream in English.

I am English and British first, a citizen of the world second. As for being European,
some of my ancestors came from the North European plain, but basing wider loyalty
on DNA seems dubious. I feel that I share nothing more with people from European
countries than I do with people from others e.g. Canada, the Philippines or Uganda.

All I want is for me and my children to be able to vote for an English (or, if the Scots
and Welsh remain agreeable, a British and if the Northern Irish wish a UK) parliament
and government that will meet in Britain and have sufficient the minimum meaningful
authority/sovereignty to pass laws and to manage the country, that I can,
together with the inhabitants of these islands, hold to account.

I don't want to trade that for a vote every four years for a party list for 1/7 of the
European Parliament when real power clearly remains with the EU Commission,
unelected Councils and judges etc. fronting for a greater German co-prosperity zone.


The problem with the unification of Europe under German leadership in the 21th
century, following the principles used to unite the German States in the latter
19th century (start with customs treaty, centralise power, ignore complaints
and then further centralise telling recalcitrant they are too small to stand alone);
is that it will inevitably go to their head and be vulnerable to Napoleonic takeover.

Self determination for England is my cry!

Sadly it looks as if the bemused timid here will elect to stay in the big German
cooking pot, because it is nice and warm, and they are afraid to jump out of it.

Expect to be safely dead before they invade Russia/China/Middle East etc.

I very much preferred Wernher von Braun who wanted to invade Mars.

I speak English, read English, write English; and when I am asleep I dream in English.

I am English and British first, a citizen of the world second. As for being European,
some of my ancestors came from the North European plain, but basing wider loyalty
on DNA seems dubious. I feel that I share nothing more with people from European
countries than I do with people from others e.g. Canada, the Philippines or Uganda.

All I want is for me and my children to be able to vote for an English (or, if the Scots
and Welsh remain agreeable, a British and if the Northern Irish wish a UK) parliament
and government that will meet in Britain and have sufficient the minimum meaningful
authority/sovereignty to pass laws and to manage the country, that I can,
together with the inhabitants of these islands, hold to account.

I don't want to trade that for a vote every four years for a party list for 1/7 of the
European Parliament when real power clearly remains with the EU Commission,
unelected Councils and judges etc. fronting for a greater German co-prosperity zone.


The problem with the unification of Europe under German leadership in the 21th
century, following the principles used to unite the German States in the latter
19th century (start with customs treaty, centralise power, ignore complaints
and then further centralise telling recalcitrant they are too small to stand alone);
is that it will inevitably go to their head and be vulnerable to Napoleonic takeover.

Self determination for England is my cry!

Sadly it looks as if the bemused timid here will elect to stay in the big German
cooking pot, because it is nice and warm, and they are afraid to jump out of it.

Expect to be safely dead before they invade Russia/China/Middle East etc.

I very much preferred Wernher von Braun who wanted to invade Mars.

I do not buy this argument in the slightest. All the leave people keep banging on about freedom and sovereignty. This begs the question “what do you really mean by that”?

The fact is that only what, 35% of people in the UK voted tory in the UK election. And we now have a majority tory government which amounts to an elected dictatorship for 5 years. But that’s ok? How is that self-determination?

As for sovereignty, we are the biggest supporters of TTIP. Do not expect this to change if we leave. And all sovereignty is pooled. The EU is merely an expression of that in institutional form. Ultimately, if our national government do not agree with something, then we can vote or veto to stay outside. Cameron has won a concession on this point, and that is in my opinion significant. The alternative is to leave and then have no influence over the German cooking pot at all. Which is just a silly idea.

 

[really]

I have an image of a post brexit UK getting worked up over something or other being mooted in Brussels, complaining and seeking an audience but being met with blank stares.

I don't know how it will go but one way or another the right wing of the tory party will be distracting the EU for years to come.

 

[Arakhor]

Two different leaflets came through my friend's door this week whilst I was staying with him, both repeating the blatant lie that leaving the EU would allow the Government to spend £350m a week on the NHS, yet MegaTsunami was surprised that I'd be offended by such a claim.

 

[PhroX]

The fact is that only what, 35% of people in the UK voted tory in the UK election. And we now have a majority tory government which amounts to an elected dictatorship for 5 years. But that’s ok? How is that self-determination?

It was about 37% of the people who voted. Which works out as less than 25% of eligible voters. Of course, not everyone in the country is eligible to vote, so in the end, the truth is that less than 20% of the population of the UK voted for the current ruling party. Democracy my arse.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, 35%?

I thought that we had a pretty bad system, what with something a bit over 40% needed (cause the first party gets a seat boost for coming first).

Then again we do not have many local seats that only elect one person. It is more proportional, and the main cities elect loads of MPs in one ballot, depending on party %.

Not that it guarantees non-crap politicians. But it sounds fairer than the British system of first gets all.

 

[Phrossack]

I speak English, read English, write English; and when I am asleep I dream in English.

I am English and British first, a citizen of the world second. As for being European,
some of my ancestors came from the North European plain, but basing wider loyalty
on DNA seems dubious. I feel that I share nothing more with people from European
countries than I do with people from others e.g. Canada, the Philippines or Uganda.

All I want is for me and my children to be able to vote for an English (or, if the Scots
and Welsh remain agreeable, a British and if the Northern Irish wish a UK) parliament
and government that will meet in Britain and have sufficient the minimum meaningful
authority/sovereignty to pass laws and to manage the country, that I can,
together with the inhabitants of these islands, hold to account.

I don't want to trade that for a vote every four years for a party list for 1/7 of the
European Parliament when real power clearly remains with the EU Commission,
unelected Councils and judges etc. fronting for a greater German co-prosperity zone.


The problem with the unification of Europe under German leadership in the 21th
century, following the principles used to unite the German States in the latter
19th century (start with customs treaty, centralise power, ignore complaints
and then further centralise telling recalcitrant they are too small to stand alone);
is that it will inevitably go to their head and be vulnerable to Napoleonic takeover.

Self determination for England is my cry!

Sadly it looks as if the bemused timid here will elect to stay in the big German
cooking pot, because it is nice and warm, and they are afraid to jump out of it.

Expect to be safely dead before they invade Russia/China/Middle East etc.

I very much preferred Wernher von Braun who wanted to invade Mars.

Do you know anything about modern Germany, or is all your knowledge from an era when "British India" was on a map?

Modern Germany has a strongly pacifist culture and a rather weak military. It doesn't form the majority of the EU's population, economy, military, or anything else other than being #1 in the amount of German-speakers. Germany really doesn't lead the EU, couldn't successfully invade any country stronger than Liechtenstein if it wanted to, and nobody was ever forced to join the EU and they are free to leave. This isn't the USSR. There is no "Brussels tyranny." Modern English nationalism is so heavily based on the legends of Agincourt, Waterloo, Flanders, and the Second World War that, like a certain British general in the Crimean War, you're still accidentally calling your enemies "the French" (or in this case, the Germans) because that's what you're used to. The mindset of English nationalism is stuck thinking it's still in a bygone era where Britain had a global empire, strong enemies on the Continent that yearned to conquer it, and some degree of worldwide relevance.

But times have changed.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Hm. Seems the internet/information age isn't a thing. Or...?

 

[Akka]

Roll on the vote. Im sick of all the lies.

I think the sad irony is that people equate the EU with some of the pitfalls of globalisation. The truth is that the EU acts as a counterweight to many of globalisations more unpleasant aspects. It sure isnt perfect, but it does at least guarantee a certain level of workers rights and also protection for consumers.

The saddest part of it is that many people blame the EU for huge banking abuses, and want to like so the UK can protect its workers from such, when it's actually the UK which protected teeth and nails banks, and the EU which helped with worker conditions.

 

[HAND]

The story of the day for me:

EU referendum: Trade curbs 'foolish' if UK votes Leave, says German industry

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

 

[Arakhor]

I agree that it would be a bad idea, but he's just a business expert and the British public have had enough of experts (allegedly).

 

[sherbz]

It was about 37% of the people who voted. Which works out as less than 25% of eligible voters. Of course, not everyone in the country is eligible to vote, so in the end, the truth is that less than 20% of the population of the UK voted for the current ruling party. Democracy my arse.

Quite right, it is even worse if you take everyone in to account. But then my view is if you don’t vote then you cant complain, and are therefore excluded from any final reckoning.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Roll on the vote. Im sick of all the lies.

I think the sad irony is that people equate the EU with some of the pitfalls of globalisation. The truth is that the EU acts as a counterweight to many of globalisations more unpleasant aspects. It sure isnt perfect, but it does at least guarantee a certain level of workers rights and also protection for consumers.

I am voting in. I am not a Europhile. But i simply cannot stomach backing a blonde haired buffoon, and someone my mum, who is a teacher, thinks is the Devil walking on earth (Michael Gove). And thats to say nothing over Nigel Farage.

Do you know anything about modern Germany, or is all your knowledge from an era when "British India" was on a map?

Modern Germany has a strongly pacifist culture and a rather weak military. It doesn't form the majority of the EU's population, economy, military, or anything else other than being #1 in the amount of German-speakers. Germany really doesn't lead the EU, couldn't successfully invade any country stronger than Liechtenstein if it wanted to, and nobody was ever forced to join the EU and they are free to leave. This isn't the USSR. There is no "Brussels tyranny." Modern English nationalism is so heavily based on the legends of Agincourt, Waterloo, Flanders, and the Second World War that, like a certain British general in the Crimean War, you're still accidentally calling your enemies "the French" (or in this case, the Germans) because that's what you're used to. The mindset of English nationalism is stuck thinking it's still in a bygone era where Britain had a global empire, strong enemies on the Continent that yearned to conquer it, and some degree of worldwide relevance.

But times have changed.

Just dropping in to say that these are great posts and I couldn't agree more. All that needed to be said has been said in this thread, let's just hope the Brits will be calm, collected and sane when casting their vote.

~

I speak English, read English, write English; and when I am asleep I dream in English.

I often speak English, read English works in their original language, preferably write English, even in University, dream in English and think mostly in English, but am German, grew up speaking German and have never been in the UK or the US for a long time period. What was your point again?

 

[Arwon]

I speak English, read English, write English; and when I am asleep I dream in English.

I am English and British first, a citizen of the world second. As for being European,
some of my ancestors came from the North European plain, but basing wider loyalty
on DNA seems dubious. I feel that I share nothing more with people from European
countries than I do with people from others e.g. Canada, the Philippines or Uganda.

All I want is for me and my children to be able to vote for an English (or, if the Scots
and Welsh remain agreeable, a British and if the Northern Irish wish a UK) parliament
and government that will meet in Britain and have sufficient the minimum meaningful
authority/sovereignty to pass laws and to manage the country, that I can,
together with the inhabitants of these islands, hold to account.

I don't want to trade that for a vote every four years for a party list for 1/7 of the
European Parliament when real power clearly remains with the EU Commission,
unelected Councils and judges etc. fronting for a greater German co-prosperity zone.


The problem with the unification of Europe under German leadership in the 21th
century, following the principles used to unite the German States in the latter
19th century (start with customs treaty, centralise power, ignore complaints
and then further centralise telling recalcitrant they are too small to stand alone);
is that it will inevitably go to their head and be vulnerable to Napoleonic takeover.

Self determination for England is my cry!

Sadly it looks as if the bemused timid here will elect to stay in the big German
cooking pot, because it is nice and warm, and they are afraid to jump out of it.

Expect to be safely dead before they invade Russia/China/Middle East etc.

I very much preferred Wernher von Braun who wanted to invade Mars.

"Vote Brexit to stop Napoleon" is certainly *imaginative*.

Also, from a country that supposedly developed out of your culture: the idea that you're not Europeans and are discussing and distinct and have nothing in common with any of them is honestly *adorable*.

 

[AdrienIer]

Someone should point out to him that it's 2016 not 1816

 

[hoplitejoe]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ng-government-poll-eu-referendum-ukip-slogans

Farage thinks they've lost.

 

[Dachs]

"Vote Brexit to stop Napoleon" is certainly *imaginative*.

Draws the complete wrong lesson from the Napoleonic Wars, too. Britain joined Europe to win them.

Farage thinks they've lost.

He was already talking about a "second referendum" a month ago before the polls turned his way. I think that it's still far too close to reliably predict, though.

 

[whyidie]

I think I'd prefer the UK left the EU.

Lets put these economic doom and gloom theories to the test.