Is God Good?

Disagree. There's multiple motives for either intervening or leaving well enough alone. Parents who intervene in the lives of their children are not tyrannical, though their actions might be seen that way by children who want to drink and party and neglect school. When parents don't intervene in their childrens' lives, it can be more complicated; either they may actually be negligent, or they're simply leaving their grown-up kids to lead their own lives. With alcoholics, in fact, not intervening is the correct thing to do, because you can't help an alcoholic unless he's willing to seek help. If he's not, helping him is impossible.

Your angle on the whole thing is far too narrow.
Do you know how many people every year die through starvation, violence, or easily-cured diseases? It will take more than a few clumsy analogies for me to be convinced that this is merely your god stepping back and letting us grow.
 
So what is God's benevolent angle when he does the following:

- Creates a child in India who is born with severe birth defects.
- Lets him struggle through a miserable decade and a half of existence.
- Sends him to hell for being a polytheist and tortures him with fire for infinite billions of years.

Blah blah free will blah blah apples and snakes, right?

Monstrous. If that's the 'higher moral standard' then Hasa Diga Eebowai and see you in hell.
 
- Sends them to hell for being a polytheist and tortures them with fire for infinite billions of years.

Not everyone believes that last, especially as that's quite possibly the least defensible position ever.
 
No, that does not work.

What does it mean for God to create something that may exercise an option but never does? That is no option at all; choosing good must be man's choice, not God's.

It does work, it's a fairly old objection :)

What you seem to be saying is that the only way to create something that may reject God is if it actually does reject God. That doesn't follow, unless you're thinking in straight three-dimensional terms (which needs to be forwarded, if you are). It's completely possible to create something that may reject God, but never chooses to - it would be (ostensibly) a subset of the total potential Creation that may reject God! To suggest otherwise is to suggest that all created beings that have the ability to reject God inevitably must
 
I think the benevolence of god is the benevolence of a guy who does not care about something trivial as human feelings. This being does not seems to think in the same patterns of valuation as we do of other humans. Rather, it seems to think of us as objects, stuff God created, God owns and God can do whatever the hell he dame well pleases, with the objects not having any say. Like a car.
The power to create does not make God unique though. I can create life as well, most people can. However, it would not occur to me that because I have created life, I am justified in treating it like an object. Where God draws this justification remains mysterious, and from what I know, this issue is simply not dealt with. A big sign is standing there, which reads "Move along, nothing to see here", with the half-asses explanation of the unfeasible nature of God and such written in small letters below, which means: We don't know. So let's just pretend it doesn't matter. Lalala
 
A general note to all: I will no longer be responding to any posts that are excessively flippant. My goal here is to have a conversation, not put on a show for people who agree with me. You are all welcome to act however you like, but if you respond to something I say with a rolleyes smiley, don't expect me to continue to engage with you.
Maybe you should think a bit about why so many people would answer with a "rolleyes smiley" when you make a point.
Because maybe the problem is not about their attitude, but about the actual worth/logic of your point.

You can't pretend your goal is to have a conversation, but immediately discard everything that isn't up to your taste, especially when there is such a large correlation between what you disregard as "flippant" and what you're unable to answer.
I have yet to hear an explanation for why human morality should bind God
Three possibilities spring to mind :
- Morality is an absolute concept, not just "human". As such, it's applicable to everything.
- If humans have been created by god, and he gave them free will to decide between good and evil, then it stands to reason they are able to distinguish both, and as such can apply this distinction to the acts of god - or the very reason about why he gave them free will becomes moot and the entire argument crash upon itself.
- If morality isn't applicable to god, then doesn't it ends up proving that god isn't good (as being "good" would mean you apply human morality to god) ?
 
Not everyone believes that last, especially as that's quite possibly the least defensible position ever.

They may not, but if they claim to be Christian in any traditional sense I would claim they were on shaky ground.
 
Disagree. There's multiple motives for either intervening or leaving well enough alone.
But you can't apply both at the same time. You're justified (required, even) to intervene in the life of your child until her majority, because it's your responsability. Not doing it is negligent.
After the majority, you CAN intervene, especially if asked, but forcingly doing it is tyrannical.

The problem with god is that he BOTH intervene in a tyrannical manner (randomly killing innocents because their leader did something for instance, rather than just directly forcing the guy to do what he wants, which BTW is both inefficient and incredibly stupid) AND he neglect to intervene at the same time (I guess we can just look at all the slaughter in history to see that he was twiddling his thumbs rather than preventing disasters).
 
I don't think this is fair. To me it seems like--at the risk of derailing the thread--the libertarian emphasis on freedom. True freedom is the ability to royally screw up your life. That doesn't mean that you want people to screw up their lives. You can try to advise them, and arguably you should, but ultimately it's their choice to make. That's what you get for living in a free society.
Screwing up your own life because you misuse free will may be an argument.
But there is a few problems when you try to use it to pretend god is good :

- Lots of problems have NOTHING to do with free will. Diseases, birth defect, being killed by the local warlord, are all things you've very little (and more often than not, absolutely no) influence about. How can you use "free will" to justify someone suffering and dying of mucoviscidosis ? How can you use "free will" to justify that a cat will have to kill other animals or starve ? How can you use "free will" for three quarters of the beings on the world who don't even have the intellectual ability to have a free will but still feel pain and suffering when they are wounded or killed or are afraid ?

- If you are omnipotent and benevolent, why don't you create your supposedly loved ones with the actual ability to make the good choices ? People rarely ruin their live on purpose (and even if they do it, it's usually because they have loads of psychological problems, which sends us back to square one), so if they do it's because they lacked the intelligence to make better choices (or were unhappy enough that they ruined their life).
How can you be benevolent and omnipotent and still create persons that will fail ? That's just sadistic.

- At the very least, he could give actual real advices and counsel. The usual answer is that christianity is this counsel. At which I will point two things :
First, considering the countless abuses that came from it (and all other religions, I'm not playing favourite, but we're talking about christianity in particular here), between the reigilous war and the Inquisition and the like, it's a bit hard to say it's god's own advises, or you're kinda proving that yes, he's a sadistic bastard who gets a kick from making people miserable (or you argue that religion was twisted by bad men, but then religion doesn't seem to be god's advices then, if it comes form other people).
Second, even if we forget all the problems above, what about all the people who just couldn't hear of christianity (because of time and place) ? So he loves all his supposed children, but just let most of them drying high ?


I guess you can see the "few" problems coming with your argument about free will.
 
Indeed. And you have yet to provide an account of why avoidance of suffering constitutes good.

Avoidance of suffering is a good state of things for obvious reasons, you are trying to have a definition of "is" moment here which is just a tad ridiculous.

Also, on topic of the original question, in the Old Testament it goes beyond not helping humans avoid suffering. At the end of the day I am perfectly fine with the thought of a hands off God who allows his creation to run on its own without intervention. I wouldnt consider that evil behavior personally. In the Old Testament though he isnt hands off, he directly hands on creates suffering, which once again is why i separate Old Testament from New Testament. I cant recall the direct creation of suffering ever occurring in the new testament.
 
How can you use "free will" to justify that a cat will have to kill other animals or starve ?

Because a woman ate an apple and then God was

***ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED***
(for some reason involving saying "holiness" about ten times)

to jack everything up.

Then God sets up a sort of Rube Goldberg machine to save us. It involves a lot of needless suffering and 1/3 of God getting tortured and executed for some reason. I'm sure this reason also involves another 1/3 of God's "holy" need to angry stepfather anything that even slightly perturbs him.

Sorry, I know I'm being a jerk. I just get so angry when I contemplate how hateful and bitter these doctrines are.

I suppose God could exist after all. And maybe he is exactly like that. If so, I'd end up in Hell pretty much no matter what because I don't think I could ever accept the Christian spin on these points.
 
They may not, but if they claim to be Christian in any traditional sense I would claim they were on shaky ground.

I freely accept the "shaky ground" claim, but a literal belief in the Bible is absolutely not required in any fashion.
 
I guess you can see the "few" problems coming with your argument about free will.

For the record, it's not my argument; I actually agree with you, especially through my experiences related to your first point. I just felt that the comment could further discussion by analogy.
 
I do not think that we can make no statements at all about good and evil without a general accounting of what constitutes the two. However, if we are to discuss the relationship that the two have with one another or with some third party (God), then we need to provide some account of what they are. "I know it when I see it" is an insufficient metric to determine whether or not, for instance, good and evil are mutually exclusive.

Most people have thus far asserted that good and evil are natural categories that exist independently. This is what I reject. I do not think it makes sense to speak of something as normatively correct or incorrect without some account of what this means. I am not asking for necessary and sufficient conditions for the good, but instead for what it means for us to ascribe the label "good" to something. Thus far, no one seems to have said anything that discriminates "good" from "desirable." Normativity is not about desirability, or, if it is, that is a claim that must be justified.

This is one of two issues upon which you and I disagree. Your example of Noma points to the view that if something is undesirable it is an evil. I am unconvinced. Why does Noma have normative weight at all?

This is why the question of what constitutes the good is such an important one. If we accept the quasi-consequentialist view that you are advocating, then it is hard to escape the conclusion that God is not perfectly good. But this is not a problem for Christians, because they do not accept this understanding of the good at all. If good and evil are not about creating a pleasant living circumstance, then whether or not God has done such a thing is irrelevant to this discussion. In fact, if good and evil are about closeness to and separation from God, then applying these labels to God at all becomes nonsensical.

I have yet to hear an explanation for why human morality should bind God, which is I think the crux of my disagreement with you, and which I think probably requires some explanation of what the good is. If someone is able to do so without providing any explanation of what it means for something to be good, I encourage them to do so.

The bolded part is where you are, in my words 'refusing to play ball'. I use this phrase because I think, by saying that your unconvinced that something like Noma is [a] evil, I am not sure you can engage in serious moral discussion with the great mass of humanity. Simply, it is part of our (at least, my) basic moral framework that Noma is an evil. So is Malaria, so is AIDS. Tsunamis are evils as are earthquakes. At the least, anything that causes masses of needless death is an evil. Anything which causes undue suffering, which cripples for no reason and which tears about family and country is an evil. If you don't believe this to be the case, you are not talking about the same thing when you say 'good' and 'evil' as everyone else is. You are, in our language, deeply misguided morally. In fact, I don't think this to be the case; I am sure that outside theology you would be more than willing to conclude that these things are obvious evils.

What I am trying to do is put forward the facts that come before theory. Put forward the facts about goods and bads before developing a theory to deal with them. I think any such theory will have to include a consequentialist element, but that is because the facts demand it. However, for the purposes of the argument from evil, I need not actually engage in constructing such a theory.

You can think of my methodology here as like that of an empirical scientist. I am putting forward several facts of which I am certain. In the sciences, perhaps the facts that I am putting forward might be 'in a vacuum a cannon ball and a feather fall at the same speed' 'the moon orbits the earth' 'the earth orbits the sun'. From these facts I can build a theory, but I don't need to. The ethical facts above are, I think, equally compelling. And they stand without the need of theory. They refute the goodness of god without saying that we need to engage in ethical theory-building.

You say that the crux of our disagreement is 'why human morality should bind God'. Simply, because it is also a basic pre-theoretic fact that morality applies to all sapient beings. God has no get out card. Morality is what they call 'universilizable'. If God killed and maimed people, God would be evil. These are strong intuitions, and I think it difficult to build a morality recognizable as 'morality' without them.

I suppose you might wonder why ever we should accept our strong intuitions on moral issues to be correct. To an extent this is besides the point; we do think they are correct and thus we must can't accept that God is good (we are impaled on the horns of a dilemma dilemma; we must either remake our morality completely or refrain from ascribing goodness to God. If we are not prepared to do the former we must do the latter.) But I can give direct reasons. Succinctly, I believe it is the case that people are usually correct in their moral judgments. If this were not the case, it would be impossible to have a coherent moral theory. I believe that the coherence of moral theories justifies them epistemologically. From this, it follows that we should trust our (strongest) moral intuitions. The same is true, notably, in the empirical sciences (if this puzles, think of the problem of scepticism).

So there's the main body of my reply. Succinctly, we do have a host of secure and trustworthy moral intuitions about particular facts. If you do not share these basic intuitions, I think you are morally misguided. In fact, terribly so. But I believe you do share these intuitions. In the light of these intuitions, we cannot call God good.

As an addendum, I think it interesting to consider your theory of what is 'good and bad'. You think goodness consists in being close to God and badness in being separated from God. There are two problems with this.

The first is that it does not let God off the moral hook. He has allowed a multitude of things to happen which separate people from him. It is harder to feel God's love when your family has been killed by a fire and you are suffering a terrible disease. On your theory, this is bad. Because a perfectly good being would not let a bad thing happen when it could very easily stop it, God is not perfectly good. It seems quite easy to make sense of applying this notion of morality to God, actually.

Secondly, of course, this theory is deeply flawed. That is because I assume God is not necessary; it would be possible for God not to exist. I assume this simply because their are no proofs otherwise. The ontological argument is, for instance, fallacious. If there were an argument proving the necessity of God, a damn sight more philosophers would be religious. Even if we think that Gd did create this universe, it is possible that this universe did randomly spring into existence.

Let us consider a world in which God did not exist. In such a world, there would still be good and evil, right and wrong. Murder would still be wrong, genocide still be evil. Justice and good health would still be good. But, if good were merely being close to God and evil being far from God, neither would be possible in a world in which God did not exist. Because they are possible, it can't be the case that this is a correct description of good and evil.
 
That would not seem to render the claim that "God is not good" invalid, though, it would merely suggest that the inverse, "God is evil", does not apply.
Of course, fora Thomasian, those are the same thing. So god being beyond good or evil is still being evil.

(Unless you think that the Old Testament god is, in fact, Satan?)
Not an unheard of theory.
 
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