NES/IOT Merger Poll

[Ailedhoo]

so if there is no NES that particularly strikes my fancy I need to be punished? I've done nothing wrong! Maybe I'm focusing on another game, or have exams, or essays, or whatever!

What is forcing you to play? The unity is focused on attitudes, not forcing people into playing. I am not plotting to remove IOT and NES but rather to remove the self styled "nationalism."

...how am I attacking people who have work? Having work myself your "exam" comment seems... like placing straw words into others mouths.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

For what it's worth, I dislike the name NESIOT, and feel that the combination should be NES & IOT.

 

[Thlayli]

I don't know, I still have a lingering feeling of uncertainty about all this. I understand that our games are similar, but they aren't exactly the same. IOTers like to roll dice and have defined provinces. It seems like the core of many of their games is stat-centric.

Whereas for NESing, the competitive, board-game element is diminished, in favor of narrative storytelling. Stats are still highly important, but are much more complex and subjective, and playing the numbers game on its own fails to integrate the intangibles of the narrative.

At least since 2007-2008, the goal for NES has been realism, to accurately simulate a world. For IOTs, it seems like realism is far less important. I understand that there is some crossover, but I still feel like there's a fundamental unbridged gap in gameplay, style, and mission statement.

 

[Nuka-sama]

On the whole does not mean all. There are some NESes that are much more stat oriented and use provinces, while other IOTs do strive for realism and do not use provinces. Kashmir is a perfect example of what can happen if we have someone who is experiencing both NESes and IOTs, and I think we can see more future Kashmir situations pop up under a merger.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I don't know, I still have a lingering feeling of uncertainty about all this. I understand that our games are similar, but they aren't exactly the same. IOTers like to roll dice and have defined provinces. It seems like the core of many of their games is stat-centric.

Whereas for NESing, the competitive, board-game element is diminished, in favor of narrative storytelling. Stats are still highly important, but are much more complex and subjective, and playing the numbers game on its own fails to integrate the intangibles of the narrative.

At least since 2007-2008, the goal for NES has been realism, to accurately simulate a world. For IOTs, it seems like realism is far less important. I understand that there is some crossover, but I still feel like there's a fundamental unbridged gap in gameplay, style, and mission statement.

There have been boardgamey NESes... and there are Narrative IOTs (Take a look at Kashmir and Dead Man's Real as examples.)

 

[Thlayli]

But those are exceptions to the rule, rather than the rule itself.

There are about 8 IOTs updating every day, and maybe 2-3 CFC NESes. Unless more NESes return from the Frontier, NES threads will rapidly be submerged by the volume of IOT threads being posted each day. If azale and NK crosspost their NESes in the new subforum, that could help. But as things stand now, the merged forum will consist of IOTs, NES-esque IOTs, and maybe one or two "true" alternate history or cradle NESes.

Also, some goofy ahistorical stuff is already popping up in Kashmir, though I will admit the majority of the posts have stayed on-base so far.

 

[JohannaK]

'Updating every day' is a gross overstatement.

I wouldnt be surprised if half a dozen (at least a couple) of them died within the week.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Also, some goofy ahistorical stuff is already popping up in Kashmir, though I will admit the majority of the posts have stayed on-base so far.

I think you really exaggerate to yourself the "seriousness" of most NESes.

 

[Thlayli]

Being bumped every day, at least.

And do I, Thomas? NESes tend to have sophisticated internal politics and an understanding that *mere* aggression without an ideological or socioeconomic underpinning is too 'gamey' for us. War is important, but mediated by things like logistics and domestic exhaustion. That understanding is present in a small minority of IOTs, and most of those are influenced or run by NESers.

I haven't played many NESes that weren't trying to write history as it could truly be, with the players guiding national identities or groups of leaders. Role playing their changing motivations over time requires subtlety. It seems like IOTs are often like playing a game of Civilization with only the Domination victory turned on.

And you're definitely welcome to disagree with my philosophy; I know EQ does, and I don't begrudge him that. Symphony did as well, not on the realism but on the tools used to achieve it. I know the goal is just to have fun, and in no way am I trying to put IOT down. I respect what they do. I just think our communities have somewhat different aims at the moment.

I've really been on the fence about this. I've wavered, and seen the merits of both sides. I've thought really long and hard about what's best for the forum.

I think that I'm going to ask that my vote still be counted as a no. I have no trouble getting IOTers to come over to the NES forum, so I doubt any other moderator would either. That by itself totally eliminates the population argument. The NESers and IOTers that want to cross over, do. It isn't hard at all. If you want more activity in the NES forum, get more people to run games that attract people. That's all there is to it.

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

How about "Map Games", or making it into a generic "Play by Post Games", with IOT and NES being two subforums?

 

[Birdjaguar]

There's some thinking.

 

[Terran Empress]

huh, that's... not a bad idea IMO, Honestly I like Farsight's idea, anyone else?

 

[NinjaCow64]

How about "Map Games", or making it into a generic "Play by Post Games", with IOT and NES being two subforums?

I really think that would be extremely pointless honestly, even more pointless than merging the two forums.

 

[SamSniped]

How about "Map Games", or making it into a generic "Play by Post Games", with IOT and NES being two subforums?

But I'm sure there's an obscure game somewhere on either forum that doesn't use a map!

I'm just pointing that out because I like STG, but the funny thing is that the above statement is true.

 

[spryllino]

Being bumped every day, at least.

And do I, Thomas? NESes tend to have sophisticated internal politics and an understanding that *mere* aggression without an ideological or socioeconomic underpinning is too 'gamey' for us. War is important, but mediated by things like logistics and domestic exhaustion. That understanding is present in a small minority of IOTs, and most of those are influenced or run by NESers.

I haven't played many NESes that weren't trying to write history as it could truly be, with the players guiding national identities or groups of leaders. Role playing their changing motivations over time requires subtlety. It seems like IOTs are often like playing a game of Civilization with only the Domination victory turned on.

And you're definitely welcome to disagree with my philosophy; I know EQ does, and I don't begrudge him that. Symphony did as well, not on the realism but on the tools used to achieve it. I know the goal is just to have fun, and in no way am I trying to put IOT down. I respect what they do. I just think our communities have somewhat different aims at the moment.

I've really been on the fence about this. I've wavered, and seen the merits of both sides. I've thought really long and hard about what's best for the forum.

I think that I'm going to ask that my vote still be counted as a no. I have no trouble getting IOTers to come over to the NES forum, so I doubt any other moderator would either. That by itself totally eliminates the population argument. The NESers and IOTers that want to cross over, do. It isn't hard at all. If you want more activity in the NES forum, get more people to run games that attract people. That's all there is to it.

Yes, exactly what Thlayli says here.

 

[Thlayli]

Also, I want to make one final point. A lot of IOTers are juvenile. I don't mean that in a pejorative way; I'm talking about the community demographics. The average age of the IOTer is most likely high school aged, or early college.

The average age of the NESer, as Owen already indicated in his extremely thorough posts in the PDMA thread, is late college/early graduate school, though we have several individuals (like Masada and The_Strategos) with doctorates. Why does this make a difference?

High schoolers pull this kind of crap:

Spoiler Homophobic Language in IOT :

I have NEVER seen anything like this in the NES forum.

I'm sorry, but I don't want that kind of childish tagging going on in my NES forum. It's fine if they want to goof off with little insults like that in their forum, it's a high school-aged thing to do. But honestly, it doesn't fit with the NES forum, and the fact that they do it kind of bothers me.

I have a feeling it would bother others, too. I'm kind of not okay with childishly calling people "gay," at least not in a public forum, because I think I've outgrown that sort of behavior. I'm personally Catholic, but I feel uncomfortable at the thought of using homosexuality as a slur, especially since several NESers past and present are homosexual. I'd prefer to let those sorts of people have their own forum, honestly.

And this isn't the first extremely childish IOT outburst I've seen in the past week. It's extremely disheartening to me, since I seriously considered the prospect of unifying the two forums. I like a lot of IOTers who I have met. But dealing with this kind of childishness on a daily or weekly basis would be infuriating to me. I just can't countenance becoming one forum with people who do this kind of thing.

In the closing moments of this poll, I sincerely entreat the mods to not merge the forums. I am aware merging has a majority in the current polls, but frankly, I don't think a mature community and an immature community should currently be forced together in this way. It's not going to lead to anything good.

I urge NESers who have voted yes to change their votes to no.

 

[Omega124]

I hope you do realize SK, the person who made that thread and tagged it, actually is homosexual? I admit I don't even get the appeal of the joke myself, but there is probably /more/ LBGT users in IOT than not. SK just wanted to rib at the three actual straight users he could think of.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Well, that is definitively a change of mood. I guess, what could be expected. NES and IOT don't mix.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I hope you do realize SK, the person who made that thread and tagged it, actually is homosexual? I admit I don't even get the appeal of the joke myself, but there is probably /more/ LBGT users in IOT than not. SK just wanted to rib at the three actual straight users he could think of.

I would say that the cishets still outnumber us, but it's rapidly approaching a 50/50 ratio is which is statistically unusual. The rest of your post is spot on.

Although in Thy's defence it was pretty unlikely he would know about any of this.

 

[Omega124]

I would say that the cishets still outnumber us, but it's rapidly approaching a 50/50 ratio is which is statistically unusual. The rest of your post is spot on.

(Sorry if I forgot some people)

Cishets:
Lec
Reus
Sam
Mosh
Red
Tyo
Tolni
Bair
Cived

LGBT
Megs
Terran
Ninja
SK
Joan
Tallies
Calgoni
HJ
Tanny

Waifuists:
Mech

8-9-1, LGBT wins.