On reincarnation of God

Are you by any chance, a god watching this thread?


  • Total voters
    18
From my pov, it makes sense to look at it as any other potential phenomena - let's study it, collect data, and analyze it to see if we can draw any meaningful conclusions. I agree 100% that if you are a spiritual person discussing reincarnation from a faith-based POV, the conversation would be completely different (and perfectly fine too)
This is a point that I consider a bit, and I do not really see why it would be different for a spiritual person, any more than vaccine research should be different if you a pro or anti vaccines. The whole thing about science is that it try's to insulate the answer from the biases of the experimenter. It is clearly not always successful, but I think generally most scientists acknowledge they have bias and try to prevent it leaking into their conclusions.

Reincarnation is a difficult one, the prime example of this for me is prayer. There are at least two very well funded organisations that purport to believe in the power of prayer to heal (the Catholic church and the House of Saud). Why have they not invested in the clinical trials nessasery to correct the deficiencies highlighted in this paper?
 
The universe does work in some way but exactly how is still unclear to many people.

i think to everyone still, unless there's some mad scientist out there that managed to experimentally verify a theory of everything in the last few years. otherwise, things like "crisis in cosmology" suggest that as a species we haven't pinned it all down. at least not yet.
 
Reincarnation is a difficult one, the prime example of this for me is prayer. There are at least two very well funded organisations that purport to believe in the power of prayer to heal (the Catholic church and the House of Saud). Why have they not invested in the clinical trials nessasery to correct the deficiencies highlighted in this paper?
These guys are all about prayers and healing. I once dated a lovely girl who was a Christian Scientist. This makes me wonder what ever happened to her. I do not remember her name. :(

https://www.christianscience.com
 
But isn't that what you don't know?
You had to devise a set of rules, or axioms, whatever it called that you feel natural and somehow magically fits every of your observation.
It's still belief-based. Axioms are those beliefs. And it magically somehow fits your dataset.
And "science is based on experiment" is based.
Because there exists non-experimental science, such as math.
Experimental math is dead in Babylon(or maybe it reformed into machine learning?)
Respectfully disagree.

You suggest a scientific hypothesis or theory.
The theory can then be tested/challenged by everyone; to paraphrase the great Richard Feynman:
- if experiment disagrees with the theory, then the theory is wrong. It is irrelevant how great, how logic or how beautiful the theory is. It is wrong. Start over.

As for math, mathematical principles are scientific knowledge, hence it is science. Calculus proved its worth through experiments; you can always compare the calculation for area or volume under a curve and then do an old-fashioned (pre-Newton) approach with dividing the area into tiny rectangular blocks, calculate each rectangle and add them together. Then compare and determine whether the calculus way corresponds or not. That's an experiment to test whether your formula is sound.
If my guess is right, religion should become closer and closer to the true truth.
What is 'true truth'? :)
 
- if experiment disagrees with the theory, then the theory is wrong. It is irrelevant how great, how logic or how beautiful the theory is.
Why did you think otherwise?
Of course, dump that theory. A beautiful theory is one fitting many cases.
From what I search in the internet, it seems like relativity theory isn't going to fit in a quantum environment soon.
So yeah, there's a big IF condition in that theory.
And hypothesis usually comes before observation tho.
Since people need to hypothesize something, then they put effort into finding proof of it.
The procedure should be like "I found a generalization of this theory" -> "I generalized the theory" -> "It explained something the previous theory couldn't explain." -> "I will try to find counter-example that my theory is wrong" -> "I will test if my example defeat the theory or not"

Brief history of quantum physics:
During the early 19th century, chemical research by John Dalton and Amedeo Avogadro lent weight to the atomic theory of matter, an idea that James Clerk Maxwell, Ludwig Boltzmann and others built upon to establish the kinetic theory of gases. The successes of kinetic theory gave further credence to the idea that matter is composed of atoms, yet the theory also had shortcomings that would only be resolved by the development of quantum mechanics.[2] The existence of atoms was not universally accepted among physicists or chemists; Ernst Mach, for example, was a staunch anti-atomist.[3]

Ludwig Boltzmann suggested in 1877 that the energy levels of a physical system, such as a molecule, could be discrete (rather than continuous). Boltzmann's rationale for the presence of discrete energy levels in molecules such as those of iodine gas had its origins in his statistical thermodynamics and statistical mechanics theories and was backed up by mathematical arguments, as would also be the case twenty years later with the first quantum theory put forward by Max Planck.

In 1900, the German physicist Max Planck, who had never believed in discrete atoms, reluctantly introduced the idea that energy is quantized in order to derive a formula for the observed frequency dependence of the energy emitted by a black body, called Planck's law, that included a Boltzmann distribution (applicable in the classical limit). Planck's law[4] can be stated as follows:

So he tried to generalize the thing altho it's likely he couldn't see the atom at that time.
Let S the set of all human observations at that time(1900)
Planck's law and Boltzmann's law both fit S with zero loss.
So we observe in reality, there exists two laws that is fundamentally different, fits S.
The existence of Planck's law should encourage people to experiment in the case they thought it was extreme.
So they would eventually having the set S', that prove one of them is wrong, hopefully.

Calculus proved its worth through experiments; you can always compare the calculation for area or volume under a curve and then do an old-fashioned
I can't agree with you at this point. You don't need to test math.
Try to test your old-fashioned (pre-Newton) approach on computing integral f(x), x from 0 to 1, f(x) = 1 if x is a rational number, f(x) = 0 if x is an irrational number.
And I don't think high level math research nowadays revolve between formula but some abstract things.
Like they want to understand math more, I think.
I don't think computing is a part of mathematics.
Like every bit of what everyone called grade 1 math(addition, subtraction, multiplication, division) should be called computer science.

What is 'true truth'?
It consists of two part <start state of the world, transformation function of the world>
Transformation function of the world receive two variable: current state of the world and delta_time(amount of time passed after current_state) and it returns a distribution of state of the world.
What really matter is the transformation function because it's the thing that is helpful to humans right now.
We found that function (with some conditions, a lot of conditions). And also be able to model the world into a state in an extent.
And if we know that function (with some conditions, a lot of conditions and special cases), one can try to model the future state of the world or compute out the start state of the world by finding its inverse, given the current state?
It seems like humans are able to model very large thing pretty accurate(to human ofc, maybe some aliens can model the entire world and just knows there's some human on Earth despite not meeting them)
https://www.iflscience.com/largest-...-of-the-universe-created-using-supercomputers
That is what my definition of true truth: A 100% accurate pair of <start state, transformation function>.
There might be multiple transformation functions computed or approximated by different techniques that arrives at the same result tho.
And there might be multiple solutions of start state but we cannot find which one is the right one.
Monotheism model?
Start state = God + Nothing
Transformation_function(state, delta) = if (state.time() == 0) God.doSomething(delta) else Science(state, delta)
 
It consists of two part <start state of the world, transformation function of the world>
Transformation function of the world receive two variable: current state of the world and delta_time(amount of time passed after current_state) and it returns a distribution of state of the world.
What really matter is the transformation function because it's the thing that is helpful to humans right now.
We found that function (with some conditions, a lot of conditions). And also be able to model the world into a state in an extent.
And if we know that function (with some conditions, a lot of conditions and special cases), one can try to model the future state of the world or compute out the start state of the world by finding its inverse, given the current state?
It seems like humans are able to model very large thing pretty accurate(to human ofc, maybe some aliens can model the entire world and just knows there's some human on Earth despite not meeting them)
https://www.iflscience.com/largest-...-of-the-universe-created-using-supercomputers
That is what my definition of true truth: A 100% accurate pair of <start state, transformation function>.
There might be multiple transformation functions computed or approximated by different techniques that arrives at the same result tho.
And there might be multiple solutions of start state but we cannot find which one is the right one.
Monotheism model?
Start state = God + Nothing
Transformation_function(state, delta) = if (state.time() == 0) God.doSomething(delta) else Science(state, delta)
Link doesn't work.

Start state = unknown, likely unknowable
Transformation function = one data point useful to most humans
Modeling capability:
  • weather - passably acceptable
  • Most others - useful sometimes and better than nothing
Hindu model:
Start state = God
In between: illusion
End state = God
 
Science is constantly being improved by proving the previous understanding wrong. We have the best possible answer, so far. It is not absolute.

Nothing has ever been proven in religion. Empty drivel.
 
These guys are all about prayers and healing. I once dated a lovely girl who was a Christian Scientist. This makes me wonder what ever happened to her. I do not remember her name. :(

https://www.christianscience.com
There was a stretch of street in downtown Red Deer I wish I'd taken a picture of (many years ago). A new RPG store had been set up, and the local SCA group I was part of had an agreement with the owner that if we did an occasional demo there, we could advertise our events and promote our group (SCA and fantasy role-playing games are a perfect match as long as the SCA side of it uses real history instead of fantasy; since at least half the Shire were also gamers, we were happy to take that deal).

Anyway, the name of the store was The Cosmic Blunder, and the windows had flyers for various gaming things, including Dungeons & Dragons and part of the merchandise included swords, daggers, and armor.

What was funny was that this was next door to The Society for Sober Living, and I recall something about Christian Science being posted in that window.

It just seemed like a funny juxtaposition.
 
On the one hand there is nothing to be proven to justify religion. No matter what the religion it's all based on faith anyways.
On the other hand one could argue that there is evidence everywhere that God exists. Just take a look at nature and ecology. I find it real hard to believe that a random big bang explosion, which usually means absolute destruction, was the force that precisely arranged everything to create life on earth and it's intricate inter-dependencies

Note: That's just my opinion. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone. If you do agree with me though thank you! But if not no harm done. :)
 
Also if I may take it one step further.

Let's just say someone was able to provide scientific proof beyond doubt that God exists. Would that be enough for people to worship God? I think not because it's very difficult to humble yourself before an all powerful but loving God. Man is too proud of himself to admit he needs a god.
 
Also if I may take it one step further.

Let's just say someone was able to provide scientific proof beyond doubt that God exists. Would that be enough for people to worship God? I think not because it's very difficult to humble yourself before an all powerful but loving God. Man is too proud of himself to admit he needs a god.
I do not see it. We worshiped God for many years without proof he exists, if we knew for sure he did (and wanted worship) then I see no reason why loads of people would not do so.
 
Science is based on experiments, objective facts and verifiable truths; science is a discipline that accepts and embraces its own fallacy.
Religion is neither of the above; religion is subjective and belief based. Religion has historically been very poor at explaining and accepting fallacies, within its own narrative/tenets.

Science is mostly about discovering *how*, while religion is mostly preoccupied with answering *why*.

This is mostly true, but science can also beg to be questioned which can be a fallacy.
 
To me, science is just a modern approach to religion.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this points to a basic misunderstanding of what science is and what it aims to accomplish.

The scientific method is merely a tool that allows us to attempt to arrive at verifiable truth, via a method that's verifiable by others. Religion on the other hand has never made a point to try to go after verifiable truth - instead much more emphasis is placed on faith and truth that is impossible to verify objectively.

From your perspective then, one of seeking verifiable proof of being true, you will cross off everything that reaches into any non physical universe.

That isn't true though, I don't use that criteria to cross anything off my list. I don't even make that distinction - Like I said I approach this phenomena like any other when attempting to make guesses about how it might work, whether it even exists, etc. Natural or not natural does not matter to my methodology here.

To me there are two ways to look at reincarnation. You can either try to figure out if it exists, how it works, etc. OR you can have a conversation about it in the context of one of the various religions that exist.

It's perfectly fine to have a conversation about reincarnation from a religious POV, but when you throw a bunch of people in a room who practice varying religions (or a lack of them), surely such a conversation would not go very far, with people tripping all over each other's axioms and definitions.. Imagine if it were the 1500s and we were all discussing gravity, and what it all might be and how it might work. Such a conversation in a religious context, whether it's Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu, or what have you.. is perfectly fine, but it's a completely different conversation from : "Hey, so how does gravity actually work, and what .. the heck is it?"

I can for sure appreciate religious insights on the subject, but a theological discussion about this is a very different beast from a "Hey, so, you guys wanna talk about what reincarnation actually is and how it might work?". That has a scientific pov written all over it, since it's the only method we have for people of different backgrounds & belief systems to try to figure out how something works, in a way that's verifiable by others.

If we are not looking to verify any of the presented theories, then that changes the scope of the conversation somewhat and takes on a more theological pov. Which is fine, but it's just a different conversation
 
I do not see it. We worshiped God for many years without proof he exists, if we knew for sure he did (and wanted worship) then I see no reason why loads of people would not do so.

Yes absolutely. Those who already believe won't change their mind or need to worship based on concrete scientific proof. If one however was in doubt before this hypothetical proof came out might still choose to no want to worship God for the reasons I gave.
 
There can be a religious aspect to science popularization. People pick 'teams', and then form out-groups based on selective interpretation of data. The popularizers of science aren't chosen for their ability to discern true things, but is more of a measure of their political success. Finally, of course, we soon decide to start culling people in the out-group. Ideally, success would out-compete them, but you can mimic out-competing with culling afterall.


Also if I may take it one step further.

Let's just say someone was able to provide scientific proof beyond doubt that God exists. Would that be enough for people to worship God? I think not because it's very difficult to humble yourself before an all powerful but loving God. Man is too proud of himself to admit he needs a god.


I'll kowtow to my boss merely so I don't get laid off, and I live in a world of employment insurance and have an active savings plan. We encourage our clients to dress nicely for the panels and judges, even though it's their job to consider only 'the person on the inside'. Of course I'd kowtow to something more powerful if there was something more serious on the line.

But you created an even more specific scenario, 'proof that God was all powerful and loving'. That would require knowing things that I don't know now, perspectives or insights that I don't have. "Proof" is a strong word.

I was treated harshly by a friend once, and it stung. So, because of that, I was willing to change the nature of our friendship. Turns out later she'd been roofied and thought she was texting someone else. So, of course I am still friends with her. I don't even have 'proof' she's still very fond of me, I merely have 'good reason to believe'. I'm not just forgiving her because she's fallible (something an all-powerful god isn't). I'm forgiving her because I was privy to her grander plan that involved abusing me while actually loving me. She was pursuing a greater good, and I was collateral damage. I can handle that.

So, "proof of a loving God" is very different from what we have today. It's also very, very different from the evidence people provide (which is usually focused on merely being Created on purpose). Yeah, if that evidence improved, I'd kowtow. But we're a long distance from what evidence is being offered to something that's 'lovable'.

In fact, we already know a characteristic of god. It won't people from lying (to others or ourselves) terrifically about her. Now, this might be a personality trait or a function of not existing. Obviously, it's hard to tell.
 
Last edited:
Don't take this the wrong way, but this points to a basic misunderstanding of what science is and what it aims to accomplish.

The scientific method is merely a tool that allows us to attempt to arrive at verifiable truth, via a method that's verifiable by others. Religion on the other hand has never made a point to try to go after verifiable truth - instead much more emphasis is placed on faith and truth that is impossible to verify objectively.
Yeah, I admitted I was wrong.
I tend to think things simple.
That I keep all things called "beliefs/axioms"
You might beware about our method of verifying truth
Its nature looks like the old fashioned way to compute integral
There always will be some undiscovered gaps between.
Btw, scientific method did help my life a lot.

I do not see it. We worshiped God for many years without proof he exists, if we knew for sure he did (and wanted worship) then I see no reason why loads of people would not do so.

If you see a sentient object that appears to have some sort of everything-knowledge, breaking each of human's physics(and other sciences) law one by one.
I assume science would assume that object is in fact a god. But will you worship that object?
And if that object asked you to forfeit your flesh, will you go on a journey with it to the unknown(you might think it's a garden of Eden or dark void) or cling on your flesh?
Curious about your answer? And if replacing the character "you" with "loads of people", that the choice to go journey with something very likely God into the unknown, how would they react?
 
Science is constantly being improved by proving the previous understanding wrong. We have the best possible answer, so far. It is not absolute.
Don't take this the wrong way, but this points to a basic misunderstanding of what science is and what it aims to accomplish.
This. :)

The scientific method is the best approach we have for understanding nature and the cosmos. So far, we haven't come up with a better alternative.

I'm gonna leave it at that, because it dawned on me that this isn't really a Science vs Religion thread.
 
If you see a sentient object that appears to have some sort of everything-knowledge, breaking each of human's physics(and other sciences) law one by one.
I assume science would assume that object is in fact a god. But will you worship that object?
And if that object asked you to forfeit your flesh, will you go on a journey with it to the unknown(you might think it's a garden of Eden or dark void) or cling on your flesh?
Curious about your answer? And if replacing the character "you" with "loads of people", that the choice to go journey with something very likely God into the unknown, how would they react?
It is going to depend on a lot of stuff. Your description would include Kirk from Star Trek for example, and good as Shatner may be I am not sure worship is appropriate. Also exactly what worship meant. But there are certainly answers to those questions that would get me to worship.
 
If you see a sentient object that appears to have some sort of everything-knowledge, breaking each of human's physics(and other sciences) law one by one.
I assume science would assume that object is in fact a god. But will you worship that object?
To add, my comment about prayer earlier was not flippant. I seriously consider it an experiment that the world should do to distinguish between different models of the universe. If that gave a solid positive I would consider it very strong evidence.
 
It is going to depend on a lot of stuff. Your description would include Kirk from Star Trek for example, and good as Shatner may be I am not sure worship is appropriate. Also exactly what worship meant. But there are certainly answers to those questions that would get me to worship.
Let say:
- It can answer you everything about its creation - the world you live in -> Full understanding of its creation
- It can't answer you about things related to you & determined by you -> Like if it let you exercise your own "free will", it can't predict to you beforehand something like the next word you gonna speak next. But it knows what action it can take to make you arrive to its expected action of yours. If not, it just replaces your memory with "fake" ones. Its method is unknown to you
- It shows you its power of manipulating nature. Like create matters out of nothingness or teleporting. -> Implying it has full control over its creation
- It shows you its power to create another world and let you take a look at it. -> Implying the technique of create our own world is within its reach
Is that a solid positive?
 
Back
Top Bottom