Plan for Mosque III...

[Ajidica]

MobBoss, it is generaly nice to read the headline of the link you use to refute my argument:

Sufi group backs more African Union troops in Somalia

Sufis back a peacekeeping mission to stop a terrorist movement from gaining ground? Yes please.
Also note I used the word 'almost complete'.

I guess some groups didnt get the memo or something.

Looks like the IRA and LRA didn't get the memo or something.

 

[Zelig]

I absolutely do think muslims carry responsiblity for 9/11 just like the Japanese carried responsibility for Pearl Harbor.

If you had posted this at the start of the first thread, it would have saved a lot of time.

 

[MobBoss]

Looks like the IRA and LRA didn't get the memo or something.

Well, neither of those are my sect.

But your simply doing what others have done many times, and as a christian I have to deal with it.

Just like the mosque planners need to deal with it.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Ajidica]

You are a Christian, the IRA and LRA are christian organizations. That is the same connection the Sufis trying to build the mosque have to Wahabism and terrorism.

What else do the mosque planners have to do? They already have denounced the terrorists and their actions. What else do they have to do? Walk around with an AK-47 shooting terrorists?

 

[MobBoss]

MobBoss, it is generaly nice to read the headline of the link you use to refute my argument:

Sufis back a peacekeeping mission to stop a terrorist movement from gaining ground? Yes please.

Read all of it. They were formally affiliated with Al Qaeda (until they had a falling out with another local loyal Al Qaeda group). Or did you miss that part intentionally?

Lots of militant sufis in Somalia. Many in mogadishu. Do you recall what happened there? Black Hawk Down ring a bell?

 

[kosiosko 1]

Pacifists eh? http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/07/31/somalia.sufis.fighting/index.html

I guess some groups didnt get the memo or something.

its wise to read the whole article

Al-Shabaab, which has pledged allegiance to al Qaeda, controls much of southern Somalia and portions of MogadishuAhlu. Sunna Wal Jama, which follows the Sufi form of Islam, turned against it after Al-Shabaab fighters destroyed the tombs of several revered leaders of the Sufi Muslim group in 2008.

----
Al-Shabaab follows the strict Saudi Arabian-inspired Wahhabi interpretation of Islam, rather than the Sufi Islam of many Somalis.

i guess some don't read the memo or something

 

[Ajidica]

Reading comprehension much? Al-Shabaab is the militant group with Al-Qaeda. The Sufi group calling in the AU peacekeeping troops are seeking to remove Al-Shahaab from power.
Crap. Once again ninjad.

 

[MobBoss]

its wise to read the whole article

I did. The fallout only just occurred in 2008. So this militant Sufi group was allied with Al Qaeda prior to that.

I guess you missed that one.

Sure, they are good guys now. But prior to 2008 they were sharing power with the bad guys.

However, we are missing the point. I am simply pointing out that not all sufis are pacifists. Do we agree on that? And that being the case, the point of the mosque planners being sufi really doesnt mean much.

 

[Ajidica]

They turned against them in 2008 yes, but nowhere in the article does it assert that they had links to Al-Qaeda. In fact, in all likelihood they wouldn't as they are both different sects and opposed to each other.

Can't resist, must link to article about Christians burning Qu'rans:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/07/2...ndex.html?iref=NS1#fbid=KrXM4Ndl-Kx&wom=false

 

[kosiosko 1]

I did. The fallout only just occurred in 2008. So this militant Sufi group was allied with Al Qaeda prior to that.

I guess you missed that one.

Sure, they are good guys now. But prior to 2008 they were sharing power with the bad guys.

However, we are missing the point. I am simply pointing out that not all sufis are pacifists. Do we agree on that?

now that could be read either way from the article

but i'd give it to you 60/40

yes i agree on that last point

* they are american so its not important which religon they follow*

 

[MobBoss]

They turned against them in 2008 yes, but nowhere in the article does it assert that they had links to Al-Qaeda.

They were in a power sharing alliance with the group loyal to Al Qaeda. If that isnt a link, I dont know what is.

But I will agree that sufis are indeed less likely to be the extreme radicals that the sunni/shia are.

 

[Ajidica]

If you mean power sharing alliance as 'completly opposed', then yes.

Al-Shabaab and Ahlu Sunna Wal Jama, which have a power-sharing agreement with the federal government, are rivals and have battled each other for nearly two years.

Not all Sufis are pacifists, however the majority are. Somalia is an outlier and its never a good idea to look at outliers for what the majority are.

 

[MobBoss]

If you mean power sharing alliance as 'completly opposed', then yes.

Sigh. They have only been 'opposed' for two years. Seriously, Ajidica, you need to recognize this group had ties with Al Qaeda prior to 2008. At least be honest about it. I will be honest and say, yeah, they have been opposed to them for two years now. But prior to that....they werent.

Not all Sufis are pacifists, however the majority are. Somalia is an outlier and its never a good idea to look at outliers for what the majority are.

Lots of Sufis in Turkey. They are still a fairly militant country last I checked. Also in Chechnya, another war-torn area where militant violence by all sides is common.

Also, the more I am reading up on it, it seems that Sufi and Sunni muslims often co-exist and often are parts of the same order. For example, I read where Kurdish sunnis are also members of sufi orders in Iraq. I also read some references were a sufi order out of Morocco was instrumental in the beginnings of the militant north African Group - the Muslim Brotherhood.

For example, from globalsecurity.com:

Sufis are "movements", within, and in a few extreme cases outside of mainstream Islam. Sufis in general, are complex, and cover many different "stripes" of Islam. Sufism started out as a Shia movement, but over the past several hundred years, has almost disappeared from Shia Islam, and is now, mainly a Sunni movement. Hanbalis, Shafis, Malikis and Hanafis can all belong to different Sufi "tariqas" or "brotherhoods, as they are called. In fact, the Islamic brotherhood in Egypt, and Al Qaeda, are both Sufi based movements

Interesting.

EDIT: One of the more interesting things I read on the globalsecurity site http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-sufi.htm
was about Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam incorporate sufi belief systems into their version of Islam. Strange.

 

[Ajidica]

Sigh. They have only been 'opposed' for two years. Seriously, Ajidica, you need to recognize this group had ties with Al Qaeda prior to 2008. At least be honest about it. I will be honest and say, yeah, they have been opposed to them for two years now. But prior to that....they werent.

Power sharing arrangements don't mean the two sides like each other. Why would Al-Qaeda fund two groups opposed to each other?
Do you have any sources that they had ties to Al-Qaeda?

You can't deny that the Sufi imam at the mosque has denouced terrorism.

Lots of Sufis in Turkey. They are still a fairly militant country last I checked.

With the bad habit of kicking out their leadership if they think they aren't being secular enough.

Lets let this one go. In any sect you can find both pacifists and militants.

 

[MobBoss]

Power sharing arrangements don't mean the two sides like each other.

You dont have to like each other to have ties to each other.

/sheesh, ajidica is it that hard to admit?

You can't deny that the Sufi imam at the mosque has denouced terrorism.

I dont. But him being a sufi doesnt mean he is a saint either. Sufis movements/brotherhoods have been involved in a lot of sunni militant groups throughout history, some of them quite violent.

I agree the sufis are a preferable alternative to the far more extremist types, but they are simply not pacifists. The historical record shows that allegation simply isnt true.

Lets let this one go. In any sect you can find both pacifists and militants.

Really? I dont know any militant Amish. Do you?

 

[Ajidica]

Personaly no, but I'm sure they are out there.

And regardless, whatever ties the Somalu Sufi group may or may not have had to Al-Qaeda in the past is not dead. Good step in the right direction.

 

[nonconformist]

All I'm getting out of this thread is that America needs to be on lithuim. Now.

 

[El_Machinae]

I absolutely do think muslims carry responsiblity for 9/11 just like the Japanese carried responsibility for Pearl Harbor.

If you had posted this at the start of the first thread, it would have saved a lot of time.

Would it have? Maybe. Maybe people who've prepared to post their opposition, seen that, and said ... "woah, I don't want my post to be associated with THAT type of thinking". Maybe the other Christians would have felt the need to denounce it, despite their opposition to the mosque.

Maybe they could have framed their arguments in a way that avoided the implicit justification of religious-based persecution. Maybe. And then the arguments could have been good ones, instead of just dervish of tangent conversations that were trying to figure out a way to justify persecution without seeming like that's what it was.

 

[nonconformist]

Guilt by association is a pretty dangerous concept, especially with extremes.

To godwynn the thread, one would be much more entitled to blame the Holocaust on every German and Austrian, and indeed the Poles, including the Jews.

Likewise, the responsibility for the Holocaust could equally be spread out amongst the British, Soviets, and indeed the Americans carrying this train of thought on.

 

[Truronian]

Guilt by association is a pretty dangerous concept, especially with extremes.

To godwynn the thread, one would be much more entitled to blame the Holocaust on every German and Austrian, and indeed the Poles, including the Jews.

Likewise, the responsibility for the Holocaust could equally be spread out amongst the British, Soviets, and indeed the Americans carrying this train of thought on.

And Christians everywhere are responsible for the actions of the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. Heck, it implies that all religious folk are responsible in some way for the actions of the few religious terrorists that attacked the WTC.