Should it be harder for Asians to get into good schools?

[luiz]

So because they are black, they are denied those opportunities to prepare for the test. And because they don't do as well on the test, they are denied opportunities to get into college. And because they didn't get into college, they are denied opportunities to do well in life. Which causes the next generation to have the same experience. And all the while people like to pretend that racism isn't the cause of it all.

Nobody is denied anything because of being black. Are Will Smith's kids denied anything? Or Herman Cain's? (I don't know if has kids, but you get my point)

As I said, being black correlates with a certain lack of opportunity, but is not the cause. I wonder why this is so hard to understand.

 

[Traitorfish]

Nobody is denied anything because of being black. Are Will Smith's kids denied anything? Or Herman Cain's? (I don't know if has kids, but you get my point)

As I said, being black correlates with a certain lack of opportunity, but is not the cause. I wonder why this is so hard to understand.

Don't you think that it's just a little bit over-simplistic to declare that, because America doesn't actually have a racial caste system, that race cannot possibly be a factor in the opportunities available to an individual?

But, hey, the Rothschilds were loaded, so there was no anti-semitism in 19th century Europe, amarite?

 

[luiz]

Out of interest, I've heard it claimed that a lot of contemporary AA programs have ended up just acting as a buttress to the existing black and brown middle class, rather than actually encouraging a significant degree of social mobility. Anybody know if there's any truth to that?

In Brazil this is certainly the case. The racial quota system has overwhelmingly benefited black and brown students of elite schools. Friends who went to the same school as I did benefited from race-based AA
And somehow that's supposed to be fair :suicide:

 

[luiz]

Don't you think that it's just a little bit over-simplistic to declare that, because America doesn't actually have a racial caste system, that race cannot possibly be a factor in the opportunities available to an individual?

It is not, because I have actually gone through studies and databases on some measures of opportunity (credit availability, pay grade for the same starting positions, etc) and found that once controlled for more relevant variables race ceases to be statistically significant. This is a favorite subject of Econometrics teachers and I went through it many times during my masters. It goes like this:
1- Take a very simple socio-economic regression;
2-Add a racial dummy;
3-See that dummy is statistically significant (OMG RACISM!11!!)
4-Include control variables;
5- Racial dummy ceases to be statistically significant.

 

[Traitorfish]

The possibility that these "control variables" could themselves act in an obscuring manner is not taken into account, I assume.

 

[warpus]

So because they are black, they are denied those opportunities to prepare for the test. And because they don't do as well on the test, they are denied opportunities to get into college. And because they didn't get into college, they are denied opportunities to do well in life. Which causes the next generation to have the same experience. And all the while people like to pretend that racism isn't the cause of it all.

This isn't true for all black students.

It IS true for all POOR students.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

Race is a societal construct, and the sooner we learn this, the better.

 

[Traitorfish]

This isn't true for all black students.

It IS true for all POOR students.

The question, though, is if it's truer for poor black and brown students than for poor white students.

Race is a societal construct, and the sooner we learn this, the better.

Not that I disagree, but what implications are you suggesting it has on this issue specifically?

 

[luiz]

The possibility that these "control variables" could themselves act in an obscuring manner is not taken into account, I assume.

There are right and wrong ways to choose them. And you can't add a variable that is just a proxy for an already included variable or your model would suffer from endogeneity, which is pretty much the second thing you test to see if the model is consistent (after heterokedasticity).

 

[Ayn Rand]

This isn't true for all black students.

It IS true for all POOR students.

So wealthy black students are guaranteed a place which might otherwise be taken away from them by poor white students of higher ability.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

What I don't get about affirmative action is what happens to people of mixed race?

 

[tycoonist]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the principle that it shouldn't be something you can learn in a book (or at least you need to learn the basic ideas, but you really should know them if you're reading science) still hold - so it's the application that counts rather than the knowledge per se?

Well, all the stuff they asked me was based on what I already knew, but it was aimed at seeing how you could think about stuff you hadn't encountered. Not necessarily stuff that you can't learn (certainly it is possible to prepare in some ways for interviews) but stuff that you wouldnt have been taught at A level. I can't speak for all subjects at Oxford and Cambridge though, only really Phys Nat Sci at Clare...

 

[downtown]

So wealthy black students are guaranteed a place which might otherwise be taken away from them by poor white students of higher ability.

Well, that totally depends on the institution. Brazil apparently uses a quota system, and maybe the UK does too. The US does not. My Alma Mater, one of the largest public universities in the US, gives the same AA "bonus" to residents of our Appalachian Counties (poor white kids) that it would for a black kid. The AA system isn't in a vacuum...the poor white student who also be getting a lot of bonuses.

Nobody is denied anything because of being black. Are Will Smith's kids denied anything? Or Herman Cain's? (I don't know if has kids, but you get my point)

As I said, being black correlates with a certain lack of opportunity, but is not the cause. I wonder why this is so hard to understand.

Well, I hope Herman Cain's kids aren't ever arrested in the US, because even with money, they're more likely to get harsher punishments. By having lots of money, they're going to attend better schools, but yes, depending on where they live, they're still going to face disadvantages.

 

[luiz]

Well, I hope Herman Cain's kids aren't ever arrested in the US, because even with money, they're more likely to get harsher punishments. By having lots of money, they're going to attend better schools, but yes, depending on where they live, they're still going to face disadvantages.

Do wealthy blacks really face harsher punishments? We'd need a a good study to show this. My impression is that wealthy blacks can exploit the justice system just like any other wealthy individual, like OJ Simpson did.

 

[Takhisis]

However, race correlates to a huge extent with social background. Perhaps 'accent' would be a better filter, at least over here.

I can do a near-perfect Queen's English a.k.a. RP (pronounce aah-pee) or a very rhotic Northernoid when i have a mind to… which would you recommend in the 21st century?

What I don't get about affirmative action is what happens to people of mixed race?

They should get the benefits of both communities…

 

[madviking]

The point of affirmative action is to create a more balanced community/society/environment. I don't think it's rasist to think that a university's demographics should mimic those of society at large.

 

[Cutlass]

This isn't true for all black students.

It IS true for all POOR students.

But it is MORE TRUE for black students.

Nobody is denied anything because of being black. Are Will Smith's kids denied anything? Or Herman Cain's? (I don't know if has kids, but you get my point)

As I said, being black correlates with a certain lack of opportunity, but is not the cause. I wonder why this is so hard to understand.

Gee, people don't understand things that are blatantly not true. How remarkable. No matter how much people apologize for racism, it just doesn't go away. And to say that racism isn't a major factor in the results is just choosing to ignore the obvious.

Not racism, at least not entirely, dear boy. I know that America is on the whole a much more racist place than here, but we still have the same issues, because the rich can pay for better education and coaching their children through interviews for university and work and lo, they end up educated at Oxford and working in the City. To say that it's just the white man keeping the black man down is missing the point. Absolutely agree on the idea that it's self-reinforcing, however.

You can't really factor out the racism in the US like that. Because it is in fact a daily part of the lives of black Americans. They never really escape it.

 

[Murky]

My mom's always sending me stuff (or talking about it to me when I visit) that I mostly disagree with from libertarian sites like JewishWorldReview but one thing I couldn't really disagree on was an article about affirmative action about how it's harder for Asian students to get into good universities because there are already so many Asian students there.

I'm not a huge fan of affirmative action in general but at least I can see the point in making university more accessible to poorer black & Hispanic students but I don't see any point in making it even harder for Asians than whites to get in. Asians aren't particularly more privileged (most Asian people I know are typical working class folks) than other Americans, why should they be punished for their strong academic work ethic?

Anyone want to play devil's advocate here & take the opposing side?

This is one thing in which I strongly disagree. We need our higher education institutions to be color blind as well as equal opportunity in regard to every other aspect of selection. The only requirement should be that you are human and can demonstrate that you are the best possible choice for the next available opening. If we force schools to have x% of a certain race, we may well be harming our future prospects. That's not to say that I think any particular race isn't suited for it. No, the reason is that not every person is well suited for it. With minorities, its more a problem of nurture than nature. Culture is also to blame. We can't risk handicapping our universities to make up for the shortcomings of society.

We face a lot of difficult challenges ahead. We need the best possible people, in the best possible schools to achieve the best possible results.

 

[Tahuti]

I don't think it's rasist to think that a university's demographics should mimic those of society at large.

The problem of affirmative action is that it never adresses why university's demographics match that of society at large.

 

[wolfigor]

I don't think it's rasist to think that a university's demographics should mimic those of society at large.

Why should it?
University population should reflect the academic capacity of the people attending it, this may lead to a different share of "races" than in the wider community outide academic world.
We should not artificially force a specific demographic onto a meritocratic institution.

I think to remember that at the old time of the "race to the moon" all astronauts were white.
NASA was accused of racism and interrogated.
The answer was very simple: most of black people at the time preferred economy instead of science, and NASA picked only the best of the best from a scientific background.
The demographic in science did not reflect the country demographic.