[RD] Surrender Summit

And because he's not Hitler it's all hunky-dory?

Well for one thing I don't believe it's possible to honestly believe this is my position if you actually read all my posts in this thread. And second of all even without the evidence of my opposition to Putin here you surely understand that I can think Putin is a problem without making historically-illiterate comparisons to Hitler....right?

At this point this is a different form of "argumentum ad Hitlerium", one that allows deflection of what's actually going on.

I'm deathly tired of how people dive behind Hitler to give Putin's Russia a pass. Russian games of false-equivalency works like this, except in this as a kind of false-non-equivalency. It's deflection about what Russia has been doing, and continues to do.

The only reason I have ever claimed he is not like Hitler is because other people have claimed he is like Hitler. The only reason I've ever seen anyone claim he is not like Hitler is because people (rather hysterically) have been making that comparison.

It is very obvious to anyone who understands National Socialism and is familiar with the history of the Third Reich that Putin is not remotely similar to Hitler, neither in terms of the geopolitics or in terms of the motivating ideology.

And if you really want to go out on the limb of "if you don't believe that Putin is literally Hitler then you don't believe Putin is a problem" go for it but I think you must realize how absurd that position is.
 
Ukraine and the West will obviously oppose the idea of referendum in pro-Russian regions. Whether it's fair or not, they won't like the results.
But the idea of proposal is not necessary to persuade them.
The clincher is whether a free and open process can be implemented.

A complication is that in Russia the dominant idea is that these cannot even exist... That's patently untrue, but creating such conditions at least takes time, and is difficult, not least since it demands goodwill all around.

It's not going to happen since Putin's Russia is currently operating on opposing anything coming from "the west". Not accepting anything from that side is "freedom", of a kind...
 
And if you really want to go out on the limb of "if you don't believe that Putin is literally Hitler then you don't believe Putin is a problem" go for it but I think you must realize how absurd that position is.
Putin is Napoleon III, as far as I'm concerned.

Which is why I'm fudgingg dog tired of Hitler here...
 
Derp, Putin is either Hitler or Mother Teresa, there is no in-between! Derp.
 
Putin is Napoleon III, as far as I'm concerned.

Putin, as I said before, is a bandit chief. He's running a kleptocratic gangster state. Whatever flirtation with far-right ideology he does is purely instrumental to the real goal of kleptocracy.

This isn't good, but it means that Putin is fundamentally trying to maintain the status quo - he and his cronies robbing the Russian people and state blind. And that is why I say his strategic posture is defensive. All the 'offensive' stuff you listed is defensive in the sense that it is a response to (actual or perceived) encroachment by the West.

Really the Cold War was the same thing. The USSR's fundamental posture was defensive, not offensive, despite its various aggressive actions around the world. It couldn't have been otherwise given the vast power disparity between the US and the USSR. But for various reasons, most of them having to do with domestic politics, the political establishment in the US and the rest of the West portrayed the USSR as an immediate menace, a credible threat to the security of the West, bent on subverting and destroying the "free world."

Now I see people making the same kinds of arguments about Putin, who leads a country which has an economy smaller than California's. We're supposed to believe that Putin poses an existential threat to the West.

It's utter nonsense. What poses an existential threat to the West is the neoliberal project to destroy transform society and the fascist forces that project is unleashing. Putin can and should be opposed to the extent that he attempts to help those forces.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/07/trump-putin-russia-liberals-helsinki
Think of it as “the expressive function of the Russia freakout.” Just as there is what Cass Sunstein called “the expressive function of law” — “the function of law in ‘making statements’ as opposed to controlling behavior” — there’s a purpose served by the constant keening over Putin. It conveys liberals’ sense of bewilderment and disorientation at a country they no longer recognize — a feeling not so different from that which motivated the Right’s manifold freakouts in the Obama era.

On both sides there’s a sense of loss about a bygone America that no longer exists: for the Right, the white, middle-class utopia of the Eisenhower years. For liberals, the upright decency of the Jed Bartlet administration. The problem with these fantasies is neither of them ever existed.

To elaborate a bit on the first paragraph there, liberals are mostly in denial about the class forces that have hollowed out the Republic and made a joke out of American democracy. So the overwhelming focus on Putin serves to displace the idea that really Trump is of a piece with all the rest of American history. There is a sense that Trump represented a major continuity break in US history, and on one level that's entirely true (ie Trump negating Obama's legacy), but on another level Trump is just the logical next step of the last forty years. And liberals mostly don't want to face that. They want to pretend that the Mueller investigation will show that all the bad stuff is Putin's fault, and then once we impeach Trump or whatever everything will go back to normal, "normal" being defined as the Obama administration.
 
This isn't good, but it means that Putin is fundamentally trying to maintain the status quo - he and his cronies robbing the Russian people and state blind. And that is why I say his strategic posture is defensive. All the 'offensive' stuff you listed is defensive in the sense that it is a response to (actual or perceived) encroachment by the West.
I think the idea of a status quo is a fallacy here. It's a hold-over from the Cold War and the USSR. But there has been no status quo since then, one is not about to settle itself, and the post-Soviet situation (more everywhere else than in Russia perhaps) is an inherently unstable situation, and can't really last.Things will tip one war or another, for better or for worse. And Russia so far has not really been that much of a "stabilizing agent".

Also thinking this is about Russian more or less exclusively tends to get the wrong perspective on a bunch of things imo. Not least since where Russia beings and ends is conundrum nor entirely dissimilar to the old chestnut about where Europe begins and ends?

As for threats, the perspectives based on which side of the Atlantic it is seen from is apparently drifting apart.

You haven't recently been threatened. A number of European countries have not been so lucky.
 
I think the idea of a status quo is a fallacy here. It's a hold-over from the Cold War and the USSR. But there has been no status quo since then, one is not about to settle itself, and the post-Soviet situation (more everywhere else than in Russia perhaps) is an inherently unstable situation, and can't really last.
Napoleon III: "uh guys clearly the status quo is the year 1810, and Europe should be reorganized along those lines, kthx"
 
I think the idea of a status quo is a fallacy here. It's a hold-over from the Cold War and the USSR.

I'm pretty sure Lexicus is stating that Putin wants to stay in power and stay well off (at Russia's expense + whoever else's is convenient), and is acting according to that motivation...not that Putin is literally trying to maintain borders in an absolute sense, seek "power balance" or restore the USSR.

As such, it's reasonable to conclude that Putin is unlikely to act like Hitler, since doing so has an extremely bad risk:reward proposition and is likely to remove him from power.
 
Generally speaking, prices in most for-profit industries haven't gone up what, ~tenfold over the past few decades? It's hard to buy that "for profit is the problem" or even the most significant factor...you're not paying several times more for buying a game on Steam, toothpaste, or vacuum cleaners.
Just hundreds of millions of dollars in premiums that would be lower of health care insurance providers were non profit.
 
Argumentum ad Hitlerem*

Really should be a 3rd declension noun. Also in keeping with the 3rd declension homo, hominis (argumentum ad hominem)

A like for a grammar nazi post about Hitler.
 
At best only after Russia accepts an international process of actual arbitration of the issue. Not one where Russia retains vetos and hold strings attached. Suggest such a process. What would it look like, a real one that is?
With Crimea, Russia doesn't have to suggest anything - it's satisfied with the current status quo.
With Donbass - for example international peacekeeper mission in demilitarized zone and referendum in both Ukrainian and DPR/LPR controlled areas with aim to grant wide autonomy to the region, but keep it part of Ukraine.
 
You are welcome to propose the real solution.

I have a counter-proposal - the West recognizes Crimea as part of Russia.

The countries of the West are not going to recognize the Crimea annexation - it would set a dangerous precedent. However, we could diplomatically "agree to disagree" on the matter. For the Donbass, there could be some sort of agreement to make it an autonomous and demilitarized part of Ukraine, patrolled by UN peacekeepers.

Western sanctions on Russia could be lifted contingent on no further annexations or support for pro-Russian breakaway states anywhere. Sanctions would be re-imposed and substantially escalated if Russia does anything like its 2014 interventions in Ukraine again.

How does that sound?
 
I have a counter-proposal - the West recognizes Crimea as part of Russia.


The solution here is that no bank or financial institution in the West does any transaction of any type with any firm operating in Russia until the Russian fascists stop occupying the Crimea.
 
The countries of the West are not going to recognize the Crimea annexation - it would set a dangerous precedent. However, we could diplomatically "agree to disagree" on the matter. For the Donbass, there could be some sort of agreement to make it an autonomous and demilitarized part of Ukraine, patrolled by UN peacekeepers.

Western sanctions on Russia could be lifted contingent on no further annexations or support for pro-Russian breakaway states anywhere. Sanctions would be re-imposed and substantially escalated if Russia does anything like its 2014 interventions in Ukraine again.

How does that sound?
That sounds ok with Russia, but you won't sell it to Ukraine.

The solution here is that no bank or financial institution in the West does any transaction of any type with any firm operating in Russia until the Russian fascists stop occupying the Crimea.
Move your own fascists out of Syria and good luck trying to scare a hedgehog with your naked ass.

Moderator Action: Enough... --LM
 
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I do not understand
As Emperor of the French, Napoleon III wanted to place France in a position of European dominance, which he sold to the French and the rest of the world as being uniquely France's by right because of its historical position as arbiter of the Continent. Verbose referenced Napoleon III in an earlier post.

Then, in the post I quoted, he commented that the meaning of "status quo" depends on how far back you go. In Napoleon's case, the position for France he claimed in the 1850s and 1860s had a bit more to do with a brief time during the apex of his uncle's imperial power (1810) than any time before or since, so I made that connection with a crappy little half-joke.

In the case of Crimea, the Russian government seems to believe that the "normative year", so to speak, should be 1953, while the Ukrainian government claims 1991, and neither side sees a particularly compelling reason to adopt the definition of the other.
 
Move your own fascists out of Syria and good luck trying to scare a hedgehog with your naked ass.

Your endless nationalism is tiresome, but letting it extend into this farcical "mighty Russia holds the big sword" area does at least add some humor. Putin may play meddler and the occasional annexation game, but unlike you at least he is smart enough to know that in a shooting war Russia gets crushed like a bug.
 
As Emperor of the French, Napoleon III wanted to place France in a position of European dominance, which he sold to the French and the rest of the world as being uniquely France's by right because of its historical position as arbiter of the Continent. Verbose referenced Napoleon III in an earlier post.

Then, in the post I quoted, he commented that the meaning of "status quo" depends on how far back you go. In Napoleon's case, the position for France he claimed in the 1850s and 1860s had a bit more to do with a brief time during the apex of his uncle's imperial power (1810) than any time before or since, so I made that connection with a crappy little half-joke.

In the case of Crimea, the Russian government seems to believe that the "normative year", so to speak, should be 1953, while the Ukrainian government claims 1991, and neither side sees a particularly compelling reason to adopt the definition of the other.
Thank you for the explanation, I appreciate it.
 
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