[RD] Surrender Summit

This is only a problem if you operate on the assumption democracy is always "good". I don't operate on that assumption anymore since we have seen in recent decades that democracies are not only terribly inefficient at governing (especially in a crisis), but they are prone to corruption that tends to go unpunished since the people operate under the assumption that everything is being done according to their will.
I've actually spoken to people who have lived under dictatorship-style governments, that were subsequently overthrown in favor of communist or democratic ones, who have stated something similar. The general sentiment seemed to be that a benevolent dictator > corrupt/oppressive democratic/communist government.
 
Yes, I did... Feel free to quote it to make your point

for example, where did it say the country was built mostly by slaves?

Nevermind. You didn't really get it and I don't think any amount of me explaining it to you will change that.
 
Yes, I did... Feel free to quote it to make your point

for example, where did it say the country was built mostly by slaves?
Do things need to be stated directly in particular language as easily digested by a particular reader for them to be both present and true?
 
Do things need to be stated directly in particular language as easily digested by a particular reader for them to be both present and true?
If you're talking about objectively true, no. If you're talking about subjectively "true" or "truthy"... well then it depends on the reader.
 
I'm just going to take this opportunity to plug The Half Has Never Been Told. You've probably read it and/or know the story from other sources, but that book transformed my understanding of antebellum US economic history and the role slaves played in it, so I'll talk about it briefly.

Before I read it, I was under the impression that slavery was an archaic, preindustrial mode of production that was economically inferior to wage labor. I was wrong - using slaves to farm labor-intensive cash crop monocultures (cotton, sugar) made perfect economic sense and people really could be beaten into producing higher yields; the level of cotton production in the 1850s would not be seen again until mechanization, artificial fertilizer, and pesticides in the mid-20th century. Textiles were the biggest industry during the first industrial revolution in both the North and the UK, and they depended on the enormous levels of cotton production from the South. The result is that slavery was a critical and tightly-integrated part of the early industrial economy, even as the Yankees and Brits pretended to be morally superior for not using it themselves.

The belief that it was inherently inefficient was common among Northern abolitionists at the time, but this was mistaken - brutal as it was, it was quite efficient. That belief had also been common among the "enlightened" types earlier, in the first couple decades of US history. One of the justifications Jefferson would use was that he might be dependent on it, but the overall trend is that slavery is fairly inefficient and was slowly being phased out. This is what happened in the North, but intensive farming of cotton following the cotton gin changed the equation and made it immensely profitable. In Maryland and Virginia, the climate was too cold for cotton, and tobacco prices were permanently low, but there was one very valuable cash crop they could grow: slaves, whose price had skyrocketed. The Deep South had an economy based on slave labor in cotton plantations, the upper South had an economy based on selling them slaves, and the North had an economy based in large part on the textiles that could be spun out of the slave-produced cotton.

I was a little surprised by how modern the arguments for keeping slavery sounded. They were basically property-rights arguments that could have come out of the mouth of a conservative or libertarian today, except that the property was human. A modern libertarian would say that the humanity of the property is the fundamental distinction that makes slavery a very un-libertarian institution. They're not totally wrong, but I don't think the difference really is that fundamental in a world where "freedom" for a wage laborer essentially means the freedom to be homeless and/or starve. Another major argument was that slavery was the core of the entire Southern economy, so it could never be abandoned, an argument familiar today when you read of the economic necessity of fossil fuels, sweatshops, factory farming, etc. I knew of that argument ahead of time but did not grasp the parallels until I read that book.

The best part was the financial shenanigans. The bubble that led to the Panic of 1837 was fueled by land and slave speculation, including slave mortgages and slave mortgage-backed securities. It was illegal to own and keep a slave in New York, but it was perfectly legal to buy the mortgage someone took out on the slave, bundle that together with other slave mortgages, and sell it on as an early version of the mortgage-backed securities that caused the Panic of 2008. Of course it all fell apart, and the ensuing depression lasted for years, not helped by the way Jackson had gone full Ron Paul on the Second Bank of the United States. Other firms, such as Lehman Brothers, got their start in the recovery and new boom that followed in the 1840s and 1850s.
 
The interplay between growing slaves and selling them for a short brutal life of hard labor in the upper and lower South is the source of the phrase "sold down the (Mississippi) river" that came up on this forum a couple times this past year. The depth of hatred and betrayal conveyed in the phrase can only really be begun to be understood when you realize who sired a lot of those young male slaves being so condemned. The "they aren't people the same" argument was always a transparent lie. Everyone knew where the mulattoes came from.

Factory hog farming doesn't even begin to scratch it.
 
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... made perfect economic sense and people really could be beaten into producing higher yields;
This was also a known "scientific" feature of industrializing England at that same time, as the national product could be enhanced with the systematic beating of children in factories, as argued by industrialists before parliament.

Source, grad student instructor said that in class a few times, was his field.
 
I'm just going to take this opportunity to plug The Half Has Never Been Told. You've probably read it and/or know the story from other sources, but that book transformed my understanding of antebellum US economic history and the role slaves played in it, so I'll talk about it briefly.

Other books of interest in this vein are
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674045552
River of Dark Dreams
Slavery and Empire in the Cotton Kingdom
Walter Johnson

When Jefferson acquired the Louisiana Territory, he envisioned an “empire for liberty” populated by self-sufficient white farmers. Cleared of Native Americans and the remnants of European empires by Andrew Jackson, the Mississippi Valley was transformed instead into a booming capitalist economy commanded by wealthy planters, powered by steam engines, and dependent on the coerced labor of slaves. River of Dark Dreams places the Cotton Kingdom at the center of worldwide webs of exchange and exploitation that extended across oceans and drove an insatiable hunger for new lands. This bold reaccounting dramatically alters our understanding of American slavery and its role in U.S. expansionism, global capitalism, and the upcoming Civil War.

Walter Johnson deftly traces the connections between the planters’ pro-slavery ideology, Atlantic commodity markets, and Southern schemes for global ascendency. Using slave narratives, popular literature, legal records, and personal correspondence, he recreates the harrowing details of daily life under cotton’s dark dominion. We meet the confidence men and gamblers who made the Valley shimmer with promise, the slave dealers, steamboat captains, and merchants who supplied the markets, the planters who wrung their civilization out of the minds and bodies of their human property, and the true believers who threatened the Union by trying to expand the Cotton Kingdom on a global scale.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674737259
This Vast Southern Empire
Slaveholders at the Helm of American Foreign Policy
Matthew Karp
When the United States emerged as a world power in the years before the Civil War, the men who presided over the nation’s triumphant territorial and economic expansion were largely southern slaveholders. As presidents, cabinet officers, and diplomats, slaveholding leaders controlled the main levers of foreign policy inside an increasingly powerful American state. This Vast Southern Empire explores the international vision and strategic operations of these southerners at the commanding heights of American politics.

For proslavery leaders like John C. Calhoun and Jefferson Davis, the nineteenth-century world was torn between two hostile forces: a rising movement against bondage, and an Atlantic plantation system that was larger and more productive than ever before. In this great struggle, southern statesmen saw the United States as slavery’s most powerful champion. Overcoming traditional qualms about a strong central government, slaveholding leaders harnessed the power of the state to defend slavery abroad. During the antebellum years, they worked energetically to modernize the U.S. military, while steering American diplomacy to protect slavery in Brazil, Cuba, and the Republic of Texas.

As Matthew Karp demonstrates, these leaders were nationalists, not separatists. Their “vast southern empire” was not an independent South but the entire United States, and only the election of Abraham Lincoln broke their grip on national power. Fortified by years at the helm of U.S. foreign affairs, slaveholding elites formed their own Confederacy—not only as a desperate effort to preserve their property but as a confident bid to shape the future of the Atlantic world.

A modern libertarian would say that the humanity of the property is the fundamental distinction that makes slavery a very un-libertarian institution.

Not all modern libertarians:
https://theavalogs.wordpress.com/20...ry-by-j-philmore-pseodonym-by-david-ellerman/

"The comparable question about an individual is whether a free system will allow him to sell himself into slavery. I believe that it would."

Robert Nozick, Anarchy, State, and Utopia (New York: Basic Books, 1974). p. 331.

That paper by Ellerman is worth reading in its entirety. It's a pretty hard take-down of the concept of freedom of contract.
 
That paper by Ellerman is worth reading in its entirety. It's a pretty hard take-down of the concept of freedom of contract.
That paper doesn't bother to properly define the characteristics of "contractual slavery" or "warranteeism" as it calls it, and operates on the wholly unproven assumption that it is forbidden.
 
That paper doesn't bother to properly define the characteristics of "contractual slavery" or "warranteeism" as it calls it, and operates on the wholly unproven assumption that it is forbidden.

????
It's meant mostly to be tongue in cheek, but of course it defines the characteristics of contractual slavery.
And yet the principal difference between selling and only hiring out an entity is that of selling all or only a part of the services provided by the entity (i.e., the tenure of the contract).

But we are discussing voluntary self-enslavement, i.e., people’s sale of their labor by the “lifetime” (that is, up to some specified retirement age) instead of just by the hour, day, week, or year.
 
Why is it that the US became much more wealthy than other countries in the Americas which had more slaves than the US?


Because despite what the others are saying, slavery is actually not good for economic development.

What is true is that slavery can be very good for resource extraction. And further, for wealth extraction. So long as the means of production is not too complex, the slave owner can extract more value for himself than would be possible with free labor. And certainly more value than would be possible with atomized small scale farms mostly run by owner operator labor.

This placed a cheap industrial feedstock on the market. While at the same time producing capital surpluses that can be used for investment (which BTW is not fundamentally different from what the Soviet Union accomplished by collectivization and industrialization.) But where this ends in usefulness for economic development is at something called "total factor productivity". This is a somewhat nebulous term. But what it amounts to is continuous process and product improvement and innovation. Slaves aren't good for that. While a significant number of slaves can be made to do craftsmans work, most only do rote work. Same thing, same way, over and over. What very few, if any, slaves do is to improve the process or quality of their product. Free labor does. Proprietors do. Innovation, invention, industrialization, these were the products of people who had no master but themselves.
 
Because despite what the others are saying, slavery is actually not good for economic development.

What is true is that slavery can be very good for resource extraction. And further, for wealth extraction. So long as the means of production is not too complex, the slave owner can extract more value for himself than would be possible with free labor. And certainly more value than would be possible with atomized small scale farms mostly run by owner operator labor.

This placed a cheap industrial feedstock on the market. While at the same time producing capital surpluses that can be used for investment (which BTW is not fundamentally different from what the Soviet Union accomplished by collectivization and industrialization.) But where this ends in usefulness for economic development is at something called "total factor productivity". This is a somewhat nebulous term. But what it amounts to is continuous process and product improvement and innovation. Slaves aren't good for that. While a significant number of slaves can be made to do craftsmans work, most only do rote work. Same thing, same way, over and over. What very few, if any, slaves do is to improve the process or quality of their product. Free labor does. Proprietors do. Innovation, invention, industrialization, these were the products of people who had no master but themselves.

Meh. Platitudes about "no master but themselves" aside, the US became richer than all those countries because it elected Abraham Lincoln and the Republican Party in 1860 and fought a war to destroy the Slave Power in this country. Most of the other slave states never got out from under their slave-ocracies. In those countries slavery was phased out and seamlessly replaced by other systems of domination, and the political dominance of the slaveholding class was unaffected. In the US there was a genuinely revolutionary phase, Radical Reconstruction, before other systems of surplus-extraction e.g. debt peonage set in, and the political dominance of the slaveholding class over the whole country was broken forever.
 
????
It's meant mostly to be tongue in cheek, but of course it defines the characteristics of contractual slavery.
Well, if "slavery" is defined simply as "lifetime employment contract" (but one parties can nevertheless withdraw from), then how does it really differ from a termless employment contract that is standard fare everywhere in the world?

The reason we don't see people buying and selling labor by the “lifetime” instead of just by the hour, day, week, or year has everything to do with it being wildly impractical and nothing to do with legal restrictions. The latter may or may not exist, depending on jurisdiction.
 
Actually as late as the 60's companies did buy labor by the lifetime. People didn't change companies because they were bound by a "pension". it was just a prettier dress.
 
Seniority was more binding than pensions, because pensions were often portable. Seniority meant a lateral move was economically unfeasible, once you got enough years in.

Labor is so copious these days that companies are trying to do away with seniority altogether. They want you to leave, because they have 10 applicants waiting to fill your job, one or two of which can probably do it almost as well for significantly less pay.
 
401Ks are portable. Pensions that relied on years of service, salary and vesting, not so much. When you started at a different compaany, you started a new pension and had to wait to be fully vested. I wish my pensions had been portable, i'd already be retired.
 
It's even better when it's a state plan that keeps you from paying enough into social security. Talk about an employer with teeth! Effing Illinois.
 
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