[RD] Surrender Summit

[Berzerker]

So, do you believe that US strength depends at all on the trust and goodwill of foreign leaders?

Not if that trust and goodwill means they rely on us for their security. If Trump shocks allies into action on that front, good.

 

[Lexicus]

Not if that trust and goodwill means they rely on us for their security. If Trump shocks allies into action on that front, good.

If we don't provide security, why would they bother trying to keep us as allies? Do you think US security is undermined or helped by having lots of allies?

 

[Synobun]

IIRC combined budget of all American security agencies is comparable to whole Russia's state budget. (correct me if I'm wrong).
My thought was, if knowing that, some people still actually believe Russia was able to infiltrate its agent to the post of US president, it shows the quite frightening power of mass media.
Because the level of idea is beyond cheap spy movies, it's full-fledged crazy conspiracy.

To be an asset, you don't necessarily need to be aware of it. The best manipulation is the one where the victim thinks it was their idea all along.

 

[Cutlass]

Because that would be John F Kennedy. Not Putin of course. In 1960, the Soviet Premier was Khrushchev. True or not, Comrade Nikita boasted that he did. Some historians think Truman's upset of Dewey was Soviet engineered as well, not to mention Jimmy Carter. Usually this is a Republican talking point. Interesting switch.

J

The Soviets would never back a Democrat over a Republican. The Democrats were always their opponents. The Republicans were always their fellow travelers.

 

[Berzerker]

If we don't provide security, why would they bother trying to keep us as allies? Do you think US security is undermined or helped by having lots of allies?

Cuz we're better to have as allies than enemies. I think US security is undermined by weak allies who give us trust and goodwill instead of military might. Lots of allies is nice, lots of powerful allies is nicer.

 

[Broken_Erika]

So by that logic, Russia and China are the only allies the US needs.

 

[Berzerker]

I'd sure feel more secure if they were, but why limit us to just 2 allies?

 

[Synobun]

I'd sure feel more secure if they were, but why limit us to just 2 allies?

Because there's a special place in Hell for the other allies.

 

[Berzerker]

only if they're late with the rent

 

[red_elk]

To be an asset, you don't necessarily need to be aware of it. The best manipulation is the one where the victim thinks it was their idea all along.

If you mean Putin tried to manipulate Trump, I'm pretty sure he did. That's the essence of international diplomacy.
Whether he succeeded is a separate question though. So far I don't see too many US moves which can be considered pro-Russian.

 

[Archbob]

Even the GOP isn't defending him on this one, he screwed up really bad.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Makes me wonder what kind of fire he'll start in order to distract them......

 

[metalhead]

It's the same as the difference between bribing a school principal and appointing one.

In the end, though, the effect is the same, right? Trump needn't have been trained and planted by the Russian government to be an effective agent for them. All they need is leverage.

 

[Cutlass]

If you mean Putin tried to manipulate Trump, I'm pretty sure he did. That's the essence of international diplomacy.
Whether he succeeded is a separate question though. So far I don't see too many US moves which can be considered pro-Russian.

Trump has done everything pro-Russian that he has had an opportunity to do. But I'm less sure that it is because he works for Russia, and more thinking it's just that he and Putin are both Hitler fanbois. And so have a natural affinity.

 

[Quintillus]

If you mean Putin tried to manipulate Trump, I'm pretty sure he did. That's the essence of international diplomacy.
Whether he succeeded is a separate question though. So far I don't see too many US moves which can be considered pro-Russian.

That's only because Congress voted in a veto-proof majority to impose sanctions on Russia last summer. Trump could have vetoed it, but all that would have done was hurt him politically and made him look super-guilty of collaboration.

I'm not at all surprised by the statements; Trump is clearly a collaborator. The only difference is that this time he slipped up more clearly than usual.

 

[Quintillus]

Trump has done everything pro-Russian that he has had an opportunity to do. But I'm less sure that it is because he works for Russia, and more thinking it's just that he and Putin are both Hitler fanbois. And so have a natural affinity.

Now, now, get the dictator right. They're Stalin fanbois. Putin is of KGB stock and wouldn't want anything to do with German dictators.

Really though, for Trump I think it's Erdogan. Great model for slowly extinguishing democracy in favor of autocracy, while leaving a whiff of legitimacy.

 

[Cutlass]

Now, now, get the dictator right. They're Stalin fanbois. Putin is of KGB stock and wouldn't want anything to do with German dictators.

Really though, for Trump I think it's Erdogan. Great model for slowly extinguishing democracy in favor of autocracy, while leaving a whiff of legitimacy.

No. You're wrong. It's Hitler. The Crimea thing was straight out of Hitler's playbook. Crimea and Sudetenland are about as close as historical parallels ever get. Putin is fascist, not communist. It's all about robbing the country for the benefit of the country's masters, and it's all about the masters rule, and the workers work.

Neither of course can admit it. But neither deviates from it in any meaningful way.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I, too, like using homophobia to insult foreign dictators.

It is about dominance.

 

[red_elk]

Trump needn't have been trained and planted by the Russian government to be an effective agent for them. All they need is leverage.

This can be said about any other country leader. If foreign intelligence has leverage on him, then the country may be in trouble. But the accusation is specifically that Russia hacked elections and brought Trump to power.

he and Putin are both Hitler fanbois.

Putin's mother survived Leningrad blockade where about million of Soviet civilians perished. Father was a decorated WW2 veteran who was wounded on Neva bridgehead.
Don't know about Trump, but only ignorant idiot can seriously consider Putin to be a Hitler's fan.

 

[Ajidica]

I'm seriously beginning to think that Trump is being bribed by the Russian government, has been bribed in the past, or that they have some kind of serious dirt on his financial dealings and not just a pee tape. Accepting bribes despite being super-wealthy would fit his personality perfectly. Alternately, it could be that the Trump organization is in financial trouble again and is accepting bribes for that reason. Once the bribery is accepted, the threat of this being revealed is a further incentive to keep going with it. Of course, he also appreciates the help they provided in hacking the DNC and airing their dirty laundry.

There is not a single other human, except perhaps Ivanka, that Trump lavishes nothing but praise on in this manner. He also behaves as though he looks up to Putin in ways that he just doesn't with any other person, and his actions lately have involved openly damaging US alliances rather than just being indifferent to them. Perhaps he just admires the autocratic personality and is looking forward to more election help. But something deeper could be afloat.



It doesn't really involve any kind of elaborate conspiracy. All that has to happen is that Trump accepted bribes - a thing he would absolutely do - or that there is severely compromising information regarding his financial dealings. It's not even totally out of the realm of possibility that he'd respond to blackmail involving unusual sexual acts, given that he is known to obsess over the "pee tape" to aides. But I suspect financial blackmail is more threatening to him.

The article posted a while ago plays it out more like a spy movie, hinting that this might go all the way back to 1987. That is extremely unlikely. But there could easily be something banal and corruption-related behind his vocal support for Putin.

Nah, we don't even needs bribes. Trump is too desperate to be liked to need to be bribed.

I'm partial to the theory that following his cash crunch in the 90's he was basically turned into a money-laundering operation by Deutsche Bank for Russian oligarchs. We know Trump has a bunch of weird connections with unsavory Russians -such as Felix Sater- and a whole lot of Russian linked accounts were purchasing Trump properties in a manner consistent with money laundering. Everything we learn about Trumps super-100%-legal-nothing-illegal-to-see-here-definitely-not business dealings and initial foray into the presidential election seems to turn up people with weird connections to unsavory Russians. Getting surrounded by a bunch of unsavory Russians with connections to the Russian military/security services and being told how awesome Putin for over 20 years probably would make you think Putin was a great guy.