Berzerker
Deity
maybe thats true if your goal is leverage vs Russia
[RD] Surrender Summit
- Thread starter Zkribbler
- Start date
That is a dangerous assumption. By now, the actions of Trumps have convinced even the USA-fans in European politics that the USA cannot be relied upon. China might not be the most pleasant partner, but if the US treats the EU as an enemy, what choice do we have?
I might have an idea.
An even less pleasant partner?
Only if half of your rockets are relocated to EU countries under control of them
Berzerker
Deity
Obama was in office when Putin began hostilities with Ukraine. Why? Because Ukraine was heading west and we were encouraging them. And we were seeking an end to the Syrian regime... If I was Putin I'd be mad at Obama and Hillary too.
Trump's forcing Europe to play a more active role in their own defense. The last thing we need is for Trump's replacement to resume post cold war hostilities.
Trump's forcing Europe to play a more active role in their own defense. The last thing we need is for Trump's replacement to resume post cold war hostilities.
I have better idea - half of missiles will be dismantled, so that EU will have effective deterrence against Russia.
I actually think EU with its existing nukes already has enough deterrence against Russia, but whatever.
There is a problem with this idea though, if you look at US military budget, you'll understand what this problem is.
Berzerker
Deity
and Trump wants to spend more 
Just corporate welfare disguised as patriotism
Just corporate welfare disguised as patriotism
Synobun
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2006
- Messages
- 24,588
These are not mutually exclusive circumstances.
IIRC combined budget of all American security agencies is comparable to whole Russia's state budget. (correct me if I'm wrong).
My thought was, if knowing that, some people still actually believe Russia was able to infiltrate its agent to the post of US president, it shows the quite frightening power of mass media.
Because the level of idea is beyond cheap spy movies, it's full-fledged crazy conspiracy.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 15,069
Hell will freeze over before Russia is allowed into the western european club. It is too big, it would have too much influence within it. You are russian, consider why Yeltsin dissolved the USSR. He and those around him would rather rule in a smaller territory than play second fiddle in a larger one. This is how empires get dismantled from within. The french and the germans will never allow a bigger country join their wannabe european empire, even if it increased its potential hugely. And for the same reason russia was shunned when it tried this, it will also keep being treated as a dangerous rival: it is too big.
Putin has figured this out and he's aiming for the best outcome from the russian point of view: a "multi-polar" world with many regional influential countries and smaller ones that will tend to ally to those. The US plays the game of the hegemon. And China wishes to play that game.
The logical thing for the russians to do along the lines of that policy is to carry on with their policy, keep favouring India and perhaps some other countries (Turkey if they avoid being hostile, Brazil, some countries in Africa probably South Africa (Libya was wiped out), either Iran or Saudi Arabia if the arabs get their act together (unlikely), possibly Austlaia or Indonesia, etc. But russia is not an autocracy and there are others who cling to the mirage of some european alliance. It they try it again it'll end badly for Russia again. Unless the EU dissolves itself first. A chinese alliance is also a temporary expedient, China aims too high and in time it would turn on its allies. But now the bigger hegemon is the US. I don't think Putin will thrown Iran under the bus unless the saudis were a credible alternative independent regional power. They are not.
Trump is aiming for the impossible, a russian alliance against the coming challenging hegemon, China. His predecessors were too effective as arsonists on what bridges there were.
I'm seriously beginning to think that Trump is being bribed by the Russian government, has been bribed in the past, or that they have some kind of serious dirt on his financial dealings and not just a pee tape. Accepting bribes despite being super-wealthy would fit his personality perfectly. Alternately, it could be that the Trump organization is in financial trouble again and is accepting bribes for that reason. Once the bribery is accepted, the threat of this being revealed is a further incentive to keep going with it. Of course, he also appreciates the help they provided in hacking the DNC and airing their dirty laundry.
There is not a single other human, except perhaps Ivanka, that Trump lavishes nothing but praise on in this manner. He also behaves as though he looks up to Putin in ways that he just doesn't with any other person, and his actions lately have involved openly damaging US alliances rather than just being indifferent to them. Perhaps he just admires the autocratic personality and is looking forward to more election help. But something deeper could be afloat.
It doesn't really involve any kind of elaborate conspiracy. All that has to happen is that Trump accepted bribes - a thing he would absolutely do - or that there is severely compromising information regarding his financial dealings. It's not even totally out of the realm of possibility that he'd respond to blackmail involving unusual sexual acts, given that he is known to obsess over the "pee tape" to aides. But I suspect financial blackmail is more threatening to him.
The article posted a while ago plays it out more like a spy movie, hinting that this might go all the way back to 1987. That is extremely unlikely. But there could easily be something banal and corruption-related behind his vocal support for Putin.
There is not a single other human, except perhaps Ivanka, that Trump lavishes nothing but praise on in this manner. He also behaves as though he looks up to Putin in ways that he just doesn't with any other person, and his actions lately have involved openly damaging US alliances rather than just being indifferent to them. Perhaps he just admires the autocratic personality and is looking forward to more election help. But something deeper could be afloat.
It doesn't really involve any kind of elaborate conspiracy. All that has to happen is that Trump accepted bribes - a thing he would absolutely do - or that there is severely compromising information regarding his financial dealings. It's not even totally out of the realm of possibility that he'd respond to blackmail involving unusual sexual acts, given that he is known to obsess over the "pee tape" to aides. But I suspect financial blackmail is more threatening to him.
The article posted a while ago plays it out more like a spy movie, hinting that this might go all the way back to 1987. That is extremely unlikely. But there could easily be something banal and corruption-related behind his vocal support for Putin.
Lexicus
Deity
So, do you believe that US strength depends at all on the trust and goodwill of foreign leaders?
Actually, we already know he has paid hush money to keep women quiet about his sexual activity.
Last edited:
There's no need to join political club. The problem with EU is that in military sense, it is a US subordinate. NATO is a potential military threat to Russia, so that its expansion is considered a strategic threat.
This sounds more realistic, but its not the same as the idea that Trump is a Russian agent brought to power by Putin.
metalhead
Angry Bartender
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2002
- Messages
- 8,031
What's the difference?
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 15,069
I have considered that long ago, when the Russia narrative first emerged, but it made as little sense then as it does now.
If Russia had any dirt on him, the US MIC would also have it. Trump lives and does most of his business in the US. The US controls and spies on the worldwide financial system very tightly. Trump's enemies would have had that information, and would have used it already.
That leaves bribing. But the thing with Trump is that he never needed to take political bribes in his career. And he never feared losing money either. What kind of bribe could possibly be so appealing to him now, and why? Were we in the 2007-2012 period, he might have some business under water. But he weathered that period, before he got anywhere influential in politics. If he didn't need support then, he certainly would not need it afterward, when very easy credit became a thing and assets prices rose sharply again. The possible motives are just not there. No motive to attempt to bribe him before 2015, when he first became relevant politically. And no motive for him to be desperate about any money after 2012.
Not needing money, would he simply sell his political agenda for peanuts? Compromise what for him seems to have been an intense desire for decades, playing a major political roles, for just some more money? I' think he'd scoff at that. The whole narrative of Trump being manipulated or bought just made no sense. Which is why I started looking into conflicts within Washington as a possible explanation for the whole story. My guess is as good as others, I'm definitely an outsider to those politics. But it seems to me far more likely.
Last edited:
It's the same as the difference between bribing a school principal and appointing one.
onejayhawk
Afflicted with reason
Because that would be John F Kennedy. Not Putin of course. In 1960, the Soviet Premier was Khrushchev. True or not, Comrade Nikita boasted that he did. Some historians think Truman's upset of Dewey was Soviet engineered as well, not to mention Jimmy Carter. Usually this is a Republican talking point. Interesting switch.
J
Lexicus
Deity
QFT. Mueller's own indictments show how much better at all this the US is than the Russians.
The 90s IIRC was when he was most desperate for cash, and when Deutsche Bank began lending him millions of dollars at the same time as it is known to have been laundering Russian oligarchs' money.
They're not "bribing" him, but they're using him to launder money. That's the start of the relationship. And this is far from an extraordinary notion, if true. Russian, Chinese, Saudi, Qatari, etc. oligarchs and kleptocrats all launder money through US real estate. It is exceptionally easy to do with shell companies and all-cash transactions. It hardly needs to be said that many of the people involved in this are Democrats and give money to the Democrats, and gave money to Clinton in 2016.
Honestly I think the whole thing was probably just a bit of a joke for the Russians, I don't think anyone involved in the scheme realized that the US political system was so diseased as to allow Trump to actually win the election.
Similar threads
