The Nazis were considered "left wing" by the people of that time

[civman110]

I would agree with Civman110.

Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) has introduced legislation to reinstate the draft in every Congress since 2003.

Rangel might take offense if you called him a "conservative" or a "right winger".

Jon Stewart: Bring back the draft — for civil service too

In response, interviewer Chris Smith asked, “Do you think there should be a draft?” The comedian’s response:

I do. I absolutely do. I’ve watched military families suffer in a way that is unconscionable considering the demands that we have placed on them over this ten-year period. When I say there should be a draft, I also think it should be noncompulsory military. There should be a draft where every young person has to do one year of something — military, public works — something so that we all feel invested in the same game, because that’s the part that we’ve lost.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-thinks-we-should-bring-back-the-draft/

 

[Ajidica]

Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but isn't fascism usually called "the third way" as it rejects both capitalism and communism?

Originally yes, but it is important to note that fascism-as-practiced in Italy and Germany bears very little resemblance to what fascist thinkers (surprisingly, some did exist!) envisioned it as. (See the Brazilian Integralists as an example.)

In the aftermath of the Great War, it wasn't particularly controversial to be opposed to "capitalism"; which in this context basically meant the war profiteers and ultra-rich who don't really do anything (Nazis described it as "finance capitalism".) A rough approximation would be condemning Wall Street for getting us into the financial mess in 2008. Not a particularly controversial position.

I'd say it's still more right-wing in a lot of ways. Very traditional, very much about preserving a ( largely imagined ) glorious past.

Sort of. Fascism was a weird mix of progressivism and reactionary beliefs. It was sort of along the lines of "The past was good, the now is bad; but since the Fascists are in charge, the future will be better than anything!"


Oh, I'm honestly not sure why civman is taking the Nazi manifesto from when they were one of many street gangs in the unsettled early years of the Weimar Republic as the gospel truth of Nazi political beliefs for the entirety of their time given we all know how good the Nazis were at propaganda. But whatever.

 

[onejayhawk]

That's fair. Communism in USSR and China has little resemblance to Marx.

That said, the rhetoric is similar, many of the tactics and the results. You can see how the "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" argument is used.

J

 

[Grisu]

If they were so leftist, how come that the only ones who fought Hitler's grasp to power in the Reichstag were the left (SPD mostly), while your beloved conservatis just nodded it through?

Of course they used some leftist arguments (mostly for populist reasons, you don't see much of that anymore when they had complete power), but that was to get people's support while helping push their antisemite agenda.

 

[AlpsStranger]

That's fair. Communism in USSR and China has little resemblance to Marx.

That said, the rhetoric is similar, many of the tactics and the results. You can see how the "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" argument is used.

J

No ideology or economic system ever hits reality the way its quasi-religious true believers expect it to. Not capitalism, not communism, not anything. That's why I don't get all hopey-and-glowey when people talk about ending U.S. capitalism. I'm not sure precisely what will suck about U.S. post-capitalism, I just know that it will suck. Probably pretty much as bad as stuff sucks now, but just for different reasons. We're rearranging the deck chairs is all, if the underlying nation/economy/social order is weak, then papering over it with a different ideology gives me little hope. Of course many spleens will be vented and many people will be killed and robbed of their possessions in the process of the entirely pointless transition. Hooray.

Marx is a lot more profound than Rand, who is kind of silly honestly, I don't contest that. They both fill me with about the same amount of hope and warm feeling, though.

 

[Agent327]

I made a thread to discuss the Nazis, because it's a topic that seems to come up a lot here and has the tendency to take threads off-topic.

This thread isn't suggesting that the Nazis were Communists, it's arguing that both are left wing ideologies and in historical records from the time that was the consensus, however they're different power blocks. For example, just because monarchies fought other monarchies doesn't mean they both couldn't be monarchies - That isn't sound reasoning. You have to examine their actions and policies to make that determination.

---

In order to believe that the Nazis were "right wing" you have to ignore some blatantly obvious facts about the Nazi regime. The biggest being that they named themselves "The National Socialist German Worker's Party" and published a 25 point socialist manifesto.

This kind of ignorance borders on malevolence. The NSDAP cooperated with other rightwing parties. Once in power the first people outlawed, arrested and put in prisoner camps were the Communists and Social-Democrats. What's completely absent in this 'opinion' is the virulent Antisemitism of the NSDAP, and the open support of certain industrialists for Hitler and his party (a matter of public knowledge at the time).

Lastly, none of what's posted even hints at the idea that the Nazis 'were considered left wing by the people of that time'. They obviously weren't: their main support came from the middle classes, who were dispropertied by the raging inflation of the 1920s and the Wall Street crash and its aftermath.

Next time do some actual research; it prevents posting nonsense.

 

[Yeekim]

Once in power the first people outlawed, arrested and put in prisoner camps were the Communists and Social-Democrats.

Menscheviks say hello.

 

[Tahuti]

If they were so leftist, how come that the only ones who fought Hitler's grasp to power in the Reichstag were the left (SPD mostly), while your beloved conservatis just nodded it through?

To be fair, Socialists regularly clash with one another. The Sino-Soviet split, the Stalin-Trotsky rivalry and the particularly deadly Vietnamese-Kampuchean war come to mind. If you view Nazism as a legit form of Socialism, the same might be said about the German-Soviet war.

Had the whole world been Socialist, states and people would have clashed over its interpretation. In fact, from the Pre-1789 perspective, the clash between Communism and Liberalism seems to be like a very odd conflict about small ideological disagreements.

 

[Grisu]

What I'm still missing is some reference/proof/citation about the assertion in the title that claims that the Nazis were considered left-wing at that time. So far I've seen nothing to support that.

To be fair, Socialists regularly clash with one another. The Sino-Soviet split, the Stalin-Trotsky rivalry and the particularly deadly Vietnamese-Kampuchean war come to mind. If you view Nazism as a legit form of Socialism, the same might be said about the German-Soviet war.

Had the whole world been Socialist, states and people would have clashed over its interpretation. In fact, from the Pre-1789 perspective, the clash between Communism and Liberalism seems to be like a very odd conflict about small ideological disagreements.

That's certainly true for international conflicts but of political faction within a country? It's rather rare (though admitedly not unheard of) that conservatives and right-wingers side with a leftist faction while all the other leftists oppose it.

 

[Arwon]

*reads OP*

Oh hey. I, too, like to use glib quarter-understood history of the sort you find in your weird uncle's email forwards to suggest all of the people I disagree with politically are basically nazis.

*waves*

 

[useless]

"Nazi's are left-wingers!" *Ignores the fact that Nazi's routinely put left-wingers into concentration camps, also ignores the fact Nazi's are more aligned with conservative social views*

 

[El_Machinae]

How many of the leftist policies did they institute? Did they seize excessive private property and redistribute it to workers? Did they replace the pricing mechanism with a command economy? Did they increase lower-class welfare spending?

If we want to call leftist = democratic control over property, then what did they DO that was leftist? We all know that Nazis became a special snowflake of government types later on (on professor calls them 'racial anarchists', which was neat). But I'd be willing to be swayed that they were anti-propertarian if it turns out they were.

It's hard to figure out what's 'leftist' back then. During WWII, the US was amazingly leftist. It was basically a war where we compared which government could most skillfully force its people to win a Total War.

 

[aelf]

#moderatehitler

Spoiler :

To moderates, being impolite is often worse than being wrong.

 

[REDY]

Title does not correspond to arguments.

 

[civman110]

If they were so leftist, how come that the only ones who fought Hitler's grasp to power in the Reichstag were the left (SPD mostly), while your beloved conservatis just nodded it through?

Easy. They're different power blocks.

As I said in my OP, you have to examine their policies to determine what they were. Monarchies can fight other monarchies, but that doesn't mean they both couldn't be monarchies. What you said isn't sound reasoning.

"Nazi's are left-wingers!" *Ignores the fact that Nazi's routinely put left-wingers into concentration camps, also ignores the fact Nazi's are more aligned with conservative social views*

As I said genocide isn't a "right wing" value any more than it is "left wing." Both Nazis and Communists imprisoned both left and right political opponents.

 

[Grisu]

Easy. They're different power blocks.

As I said in my OP, you have to examine their policies to determine what they were. Monarchies can fight other monarchies, but that doesn't mean they both couldn't be monarchies. What you said isn't sound reasoning.

As I said above, internationally that may be right. But within a country such a thing is quite rare. And why did the center and right-wing parties side with the supposed leftist when all the actual leftist fought them?

Besides you still have not explained the thread title. Where exactly didi 'people of that time' view the Nazis as left wing?

 

[civman110]

As I said above, internationally that may be right. But within a country such a thing is quite rare.

So you don't think there's different interest groups between the Republican and Democratic parties?

Do you think all of the Democrats have the same interest groups backing each of them? What about the Republicans?

Besides you still have not explained the thread title. Where exactly didi 'people of that time' view the Nazis as left wing?

It was the mainstream consensus, that they were.

 

[Grisu]

So you don't think there's different interest groups between the Republican and Democratic parties?

Do you think all of the Democrats have the same interest groups backing each of them? What about the Republicans?

Of course there are, but when it comes to big decisions they're much likelier to side with their faction. Or do you think the Republicans would side with Obama if he tried to grab power and remain President?

It was the mainstream consensus, that they were.

Yet you have so far failed to supply any proof/source/reference of that claim. If it was the 'mainstream consensus' that should be rather easy to do....Or does to you 'mainstream consensus' mean 'civman110 said so'?

 

[civman110]

Yet you have so far failed to supply any proof/source/reference of that claim. If it was the 'mainstream consensus' that should be rather easy to do....Or does to you 'mainstream consensus' mean 'civman110 said so'?

Newspapers, historians, statements from politicians at the time. The fact that they published a socialist manifesto and called themselves "The National Socialist German Worker's Party."

 

[Grisu]

Newspapers, historians, statements from politicians at the time. The fact that they published a socialist manifesto and called themselves "The National Socialist German Worker's Party."

I see, and would you have any of these Newspapers, statements from politicians at the time and historians at hand to share with us?

I'm sure you believe the GDR was democratic as well, right?