The Very-Many-Questions-Not-Worth-Their-Own-Thread Thread XLI

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Well... that really depends on your hygiene...

Quick check: The internet says we began to wear cloths 170.000 years ago https://news.ufl.edu/archive/2011/0...mans-first-wore-clothes-170000-years-ago.html , and it says modern humans appeared 200.000 years ago.
My initial take would have been that maybe at that time point babies were not that helpless, which could maybe be, but I think rather not.
I good guess would be that they kept their toddlers in baskets with some plant cushioning/leaves, and regularly threw that one out.
... Okay, google says baskets are 12.000 years old, the oldest known ones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_weaving#Middle_East .
Well, some other kind of ... thing to hold? After all, monkey already prepare their own "nest" with leaves n stuff.
Baby slings were around for a very long time before baskets. Just take a strip of cloth, wrap the kid in it well enough that it doesn't fall out, then tie the strip of cloth around you (shoulders, waist, whatever works). That means you take the kid with you, and when you need to clean it, you can wash both the kid and the sling in a handy stream or lake. Use non-toxic leaves as wipes/towels, if available.

This has been done from prehistoric to modern times.
 
Well... that really depends on your hygiene...
And on whether the infant has been weaned or not.
Pre-weaning, faeces isn't all that copious or offensive. I'm guessing @hobbsyoyo is already an expert on that kind of poop.
When they start on solids, their poop changes into something more like those of adults. I suspect that it would have more bacterial
matter too because the baby has to develop a microbiome from an initial state after birth to handle new foodstuffs. The bad
smell of poop might be due to bacterial matter and their detritus. @The_J might know.

@hobbsyoyo Was that you who just screamed, "What do you mean, it gets worse?".
 
This page gives some info.
Elimination communication
...

The terms elimination communication and natural infant hygiene were coined by Ingrid Bauer and are used
interchangeably in her book, Diaper Free! The Gentle Wisdom of Natural Infant Hygiene (2001).
Bauer had traveled to India and Africa, where she noticed that while most mothers carried their
diaperless babies constantly, she saw no elimination "accidents" as would be expected in industrialized
countries where babies wear diapers almost continuously from birth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elimination_communication

In essence, I think that the mother learns to recognise when very young babies are about to defecate.
I stayed at home with ours, and I soon learned to recognise the face when he was trying to "push one out"
as we used to say.
Primate mothers, who hold their babies close to themselves all day and night (until they use "nests") will learn
other subtle signs.

Cloth was invented way after baskets. Leaves and grasses would be useful as wipes.

Another factor complicating matters when discussing humans and primates is the actual shape of the anus
and the cleft it is in. Chimps have a different structure and musculature in that region and can expel their faeces
in a way that humans cannot without squatting.
Humans have two muscles in that area, chimps have one (I think).
 
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This sounds very interesting. Never thought about it. Would also mean that this is partially a "trait", which we have lost.

Baby slings were around for a very long time before baskets.

That has a good point, but I would guess this would probably go together with the general development of cloths, and hobbs is asking before this period, so mmhh... :think:

And on whether the infant has been weaned or not.
Pre-weaning, faeces isn't all that copious or offensive. I'm guessing @hobbsyoyo is already an expert on that kind of poop.
When they start on solids, their poop changes into something more like those of adults. I suspect that it would have more bacterial
matter too because the baby has to develop a microbiome from an initial state after birth to handle new foodstuffs. The bad
smell of poop might be due to bacterial matter and their detritus. @The_J might know.

All about right.
Microbiome sciences normally show a very clear difference between the infant and toddler microbiome. It's in general recognized that around 3 years the kid's gut microbiome mostly resembles an adult microbiome, with some changes undergoing later in life due to hormonal changes (puberty and menopause; also general aging). I am not sure about the absolute bacterial matter, besides that the very first poop basically has near to none, but yes, I'd guess it's less at the beginning.
I never thought about the smell (I do not have and do not plan to have kids), but the smell comes in general from volatile compounds produced by the microbes (amino acid breakdown products, H2S, methane, other stuff I don't know), and that therefore should indeed be different.
 
This sounds very interesting. Never thought about it. Would also mean that this is partially a "trait", which we have lost.



That has a good point, but I would guess this would probably go together with the general development of cloths, and hobbs is asking before this period, so mmhh... :think:



All about right.
Microbiome sciences normally show a very clear difference between the infant and toddler microbiome. It's in general recognized that around 3 years the kid's gut microbiome mostly resembles an adult microbiome, with some changes undergoing later in life due to hormonal changes (puberty and menopause). I am not sure about the absolute bacterial matter, besides that the very first poop basically has near to none, but yes, I'd guess it's less at the beginning.
I never thought about the smell (I do not have and do not plan to have kids), but the smell comes in general from volatile compounds produced by the microbes (amino acid breakdown products, H2S, methane, other stuff I don't know), and that therefore should indeed be different.

Great points, thanks.
I added more to my previous post.
 
This is hypothetical for your next holiday here in 2022, right? 'Cause I can't honestly see the border being open to tourists until everyone's been vaccinated. And given the current vaccine plan, that won't be until late fall.


I'm not really expecting the border to be open to tourists in at least the next 6 months. And it may be the whole year.

Because of the way 2020 played out, and the lack of vacation opportunities, I have both more paid time off and more money available for a vacation in 2021. If things are open. One option considered is a cruise which starts in New York, visits a bunch of ports, like Boston, Portland, Halifax, Quebec City, Montreal, and ends in Toronto. But then I have to arrange a way home from Toronto. Flying is the obvious choice. But has it's own costs and problems. Driving would allow me to do some sight seeing on the trip.
 
I'm not really expecting the border to be open to tourists in at least the next 6 months. And it may be the whole year.

Because of the way 2020 played out, and the lack of vacation opportunities, I have both more paid time off and more money available for a vacation in 2021. If things are open. One option considered is a cruise which starts in New York, visits a bunch of ports, like Boston, Portland, Halifax, Quebec City, Montreal, and ends in Toronto. But then I have to arrange a way home from Toronto. Flying is the obvious choice. But has it's own costs and problems. Driving would allow me to do some sight seeing on the trip.
Doubtful. Sightseeing is not encouraged for foreign visitors, and actively prohibited in some places.

Example: Americans who travel to Alaska overland by car/truck. Far too many have used that as an excuse to wander around, sightseeing in Alberta and BC, and a stop was finally put to it.

American visitors on the way home are expected to take the most direct route, as quickly as possible, limited contact, and no sightseeing. That's why I mentioned 2022.
 
This sounds very interesting. Never thought about it. Would also mean that this is partially a "trait", which we have lost.



That has a good point, but I would guess this would probably go together with the general development of cloths, and hobbs is asking before this period, so mmhh... :think:



All about right.
Microbiome sciences normally show a very clear difference between the infant and toddler microbiome. It's in general recognized that around 3 years the kid's gut microbiome mostly resembles an adult microbiome, with some changes undergoing later in life due to hormonal changes (puberty and menopause; also general aging). I am not sure about the absolute bacterial matter, besides that the very first poop basically has near to none, but yes, I'd guess it's less at the beginning.
I never thought about the smell (I do not have and do not plan to have kids), but the smell comes in general from volatile compounds produced by the microbes (amino acid breakdown products, H2S, methane, other stuff I don't know), and that therefore should indeed be different.
I still have vivid memories of helping my mother change my 2-year-old cousin's diapers, and actually using a wooden clothespin to pinch my nose shut so I wouldn't have to smell it (it seemed like a reasonable solution to my 5-year-old self). Of course I discovered that pinching one's nose shut that way is extremely painful, so I was relieved when my cousin was finally housebroken.
 
How did humans deal with infant waste before clothes (or even animal skins)?
We're parents just pooped and peed on all day long?
You may just have discovered why proto/ early human settlements were nearly always coastal or near fresh running water... ;)

EDIT:

Hmm, maybe should read the rest of the thread before I post replies...
 
You may just have discovered why proto/ early human settlements were nearly always coastal or near fresh running water... ;)
There goes my sketchy hypothesis that early hominids would have benefitted (and sometimes suffered) by being
close to geological rifts, and other places where there is some outpouring of lava, e.g. The Rift Valley,
Georgia (not the State), Java... :(
 
There goes my sketchy hypothesis that early hominids would have benefitted (and sometimes suffered) by being
close to geological rifts, and other places where there is some outpouring of lava, e.g. The Rift Valley,
Georgia (not the State), Java... :(
It's not unreasonable to assume that most hominids would prefer to live close to a source of fresh water, or at least to have a known source on their migratory route.

Even nowadays when we have transportation and irrigation/canal options, most people prefer to live near a lake or river, and why floodplains and river valleys are popular even with the immense destruction caused by floods.
 
Doubtful. Sightseeing is not encouraged for foreign visitors, and actively prohibited in some places.

Example: Americans who travel to Alaska overland by car/truck. Far too many have used that as an excuse to wander around, sightseeing in Alberta and BC, and a stop was finally put to it.

American visitors on the way home are expected to take the most direct route, as quickly as possible, limited contact, and no sightseeing. That's why I mentioned 2022.
What regulations were put in place to enforce this? I'm honestly curious, as it seems like tourist dollars would be a significant boon to many local economies.
 
What regulations were put in place to enforce this? I'm honestly curious, as it seems like tourist dollars would be a significant boon to many local economies.
Tourist dollars matter, but not having the hospitals overwhelmed matters more. There are lots of little border communities where the people on both sides are begging both governments to let them be a "bubble community" so the people can have access to essential services, schools, shopping, banking, support local businesses, and so people can actually get to their own countries if the only overland route means crossing into another country. To the best of my knowledge, the answer has either been "request ignored" or "request denied."

It's controversial to have barriers between provinces, because it goes against the Charter that guarantees us freedom of movement within Canada. But the Charter can be overridden when it comes to public safety. That said, there are plenty of border communities between provinces where the tourism industry is suffering (in Alberta and BC, particularly). Places in BC depend on Albertan tourists, and some of those places are divided on whether to welcome Albertans who cross over the border or run them out of town. Having a different license plate can mean being bullied, harassed, assaulted, your vehicle vandalized, and so on. I don't condone this, btw, and while our respective provinces have political differences on several significant issues, the people themselves usually get along fine. I've actually seen more of BC than I have of Alberta and most of my favorite places are there.

When it comes to closed borders between countries... sorry. But the Americans have had a government that hasn't paid attention to the science and whose "leader" has openly mocked the scientists and medical professionals and sabotaged reasonable efforts to get the pandemic under control. Closing the border to American tourists doesn't mean we hate Americans. We just don't want the virus hitching a ride in with them, and that means they can't come here. I know it means blaming everyone for the actions of a relative few, but that's how it is. Cutlass is not an essential worker, he's not a Canadian citizen, he doesn't have permanent residency status, and that's why he won't be allowed in - or at the very least, won't be allowed to sightsee. He'd be expected to get back to the U.S. by the fastest, most direct route, and have as close to zero contact with Canadians as possible.

Essential workers, like medical personnel and truckers hauling stuff we need, are allowed across the border. Tourists are not essential workers. Therefore, they're not allowed in unless, for instance, they're residents of Alaska traveling overland. And even then, they're to take the most direct route and avoid tourist areas like Banff, Jasper, and various places in BC. The ones who are caught are given hefty fines.

In fact, there are folks here who don't think the Alaska-bound Americans should be allowed in anyway, given that there's a way to get there by boat from somewhere in Washington state.
 
Cutlass is not an essential worker, he's not a Canadian citizen, he doesn't have permanent residency status, and that's why he won't be allowed in - or at the very least, won't be allowed to sightsee.


I am, in fact, an essential worker, and have a letter in my car from a US federal government agency directing US state and local law enforcement to not impede my travel. I have not missed a single day of work this year because of covid related restrictions.

Now I do understand that none of this gives me reason or rights to cross the Canadian border. But that doesn't in any sense prevent me from doing research concerning what I may need to know for when the border reopens.
 
Do you actually deliver letters to addresses in Canada?
 
I get it, you're finding an escape route for when the Confederate Army of the Mississippi veer north-east and trample through your landholdings. ;)
 
I am, in fact, an essential worker, and have a letter in my car from a US federal government agency directing US state and local law enforcement to not impede my travel. I have not missed a single day of work this year because of covid related restrictions.

Now I do understand that none of this gives me reason or rights to cross the Canadian border. But that doesn't in any sense prevent me from doing research concerning what I may need to know for when the border reopens.
As someone who works for the U.S. Postal Service, that makes you essential in the U.S. What it makes you in Canada is a tourist.

What I mean by essential worker is if you would be performing an essential service in Canada. You wouldn't be, so you're not, as far as Canadian rules see it.

And of course nobody is saying you can't do research. Research is sensible, and I hope you get a definitive answer to your original question (since I have no idea about car rentals, I'm not offering an opinion on that specific issue). All I'm saying is not to expect to put it to any practical use until 2022.
 
This argument seems pretty stupid, since Cutlass doesn't seem to be planning anything for next week and in any case I will be surprised if cruises start operating before this pandemic is actually over.

Kind of a moot point to say people can't enter Canada now when the idea is to enter... when that is possible.
 
This argument seems pretty stupid, since Cutlass doesn't seem to be planning anything for next week and in any case I will be surprised if cruises start operating before this pandemic is actually over.

Kind of a moot point to say people can't enter Canada now when the idea is to enter... when that is possible.
Re-read his first explanation. He was talking about a possible trip in 2021. Going by the fact that every couple of weeks the border closures and lockdowns get extended another couple of weeks to a month (several months in the case of the international border), it's very doubtful that American tourists are going to be allowed in this year.

Cutlass isn't the only person I've encountered lately online who is being overoptimistic about holiday plans in Canada.
 
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